4 ms·

The point about on-call is really critical and really on-point. If a company thinks an application is important enough to run 24x7 then it should staff for 24x

The point about on-call is really critical and really on-point. If a company thinks an application is important enough to run 24x7 then it should staff for 24x7 support. Stealing wages from workers by expecting them to be available 24x7 (on-call) is an absolute abuse. It also leads to burn out, poor performance during the day (how is a dev's development ability when they were up at 2:30am on an incident call the night before?), and clouded thinking causing mistakes or impacting recovery time during incidents.

HenryBemis 6y ago
The companies do this for the money. And the people what work in those companies have no real sense of the risks, or they just care more for the numbers and want to roll the dice. I would not trust someone who I just woke up at 2am to do something. He/she is mid-sleep. They will be prone to errors, they will be super tired, and I just ruined their next 1.5 days that it will take them to recover from that. This is not a job where you live boxes where intellect is not needed as much, (strength and stamina will also be affected by a mid-night alarm). You want your folks to be 100% on par, otherwise they may make things worse.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  Type: live = "lift boxes" (just spotted that, apologies I can't edit and correct)
MattGaiser 6y ago
They should also allow time and budget for building an application that can run 24/7 without too many errors. "We need [insert thing manager asks for here] immediately" has consequences.
- mtberatwork 6y ago
  It doesn't have consequences though, which is why it keeps happening.
nineteen999 6y ago
> If a company thinks an application is important enough to run 24x7 then it should staff for 24x7 support And where it really matters, they do. My team and I build and manage a large Emergency Services telecommunication network. We have Tier 1/2 operators on shift work 24/7. Tier 3 staff (programmers, system integrators and administrators) are their escalation point for critical issues outside of business hours. > Stealing wages from workers by expecting them to be available 24x7 (on-call) The Tier 3's that are on-call in our environment are on a rotating roster are compensated nicely for being prepared to answer the phone outside business hours. Frequently they don't get called during their week at all and it's free money. > how is a dev's development ability when they were up at 2:30am on an incident call the night before? Easy, as well as the financial compensation, we give them time in lieu. Two hours callout in the middle of the night, two (paid) hours given back on their next working day, or whenever they prefer, subject to availability of other staff. There are simple solutions to these problems, and where they matter, they are applied. Granted things are very black and white for us as lives are potentially at stake, but any company that wants to have 24/7 engineers available needs to pay for that kind of support.
- piokoch 6y ago
  "Frequently they don't get called during their week at all and it's free money." That's, I think, is a wrong perspective, when people are on call, they have to be somewhere near their computer/internet connection and be ready to work (so it is not just you can go to a party and if call happens do some quick fix in a toilet). On-calls cannot do what they want with their time, so they don't get money for free.
  - nineteen999 6y ago
    Yeah this is true although our compensation for their time is pretty generous. As a team we are pretty flexible too and if somebody has an event they want to go to they can always find someone else on the team to cover or swap with them for the night.
- machello13 6y ago
  > Easy, as well as the financial compensation, we give them time in lieu. Two hours callout in the middle of the night, two (paid) hours given back on their next working day, or whenever they prefer, subject to availability of other staff. Every company should do this but none I've worked at do. To be honest, I just take the makeup time myself.

HenryBemis 6y ago

The companies do this for the money. And the people what work in those companies have no real sense of the risks, or they just care more for the numbers and want to roll the dice. I would not trust someone who I just woke up at 2am to do something. He/she is mid-sleep. They will be prone to errors, they will be super tired, and I just ruined their next 1.5 days that it will take them to recover from that. This is not a job where you live boxes where intellect is not needed as much, (strength and stamina will also be affected by a mid-night alarm). You want your folks to be 100% on par, otherwise they may make things worse.

HenryBemis 6y ago
Type: live = "lift boxes" (just spotted that, apologies I can't edit and correct)

MattGaiser 6y ago

They should also allow time and budget for building an application that can run 24/7 without too many errors. "We need [insert thing manager asks for here] immediately" has consequences.

mtberatwork 6y ago
It doesn't have consequences though, which is why it keeps happening.

nineteen999 6y ago

> If a company thinks an application is important enough to run 24x7 then it should staff for 24x7 support And where it really matters, they do. My team and I build and manage a large Emergency Services telecommunication network. We have Tier 1/2 operators on shift work 24/7. Tier 3 staff (programmers, system integrators and administrators) are their escalation point for critical issues outside of business hours. > Stealing wages from workers by expecting them to be available 24x7 (on-call) The Tier 3's that are on-call in our environment are on a rotating roster are compensated nicely for being prepared to answer the phone outside business hours. Frequently they don't get called during their week at all and it's free money. > how is a dev's development ability when they were up at 2:30am on an incident call the night before? Easy, as well as the financial compensation, we give them time in lieu. Two hours callout in the middle of the night, two (paid) hours given back on their next working day, or whenever they prefer, subject to availability of other staff. There are simple solutions to these problems, and where they matter, they are applied. Granted things are very black and white for us as lives are potentially at stake, but any company that wants to have 24/7 engineers available needs to pay for that kind of support.

piokoch 6y ago
"Frequently they don't get called during their week at all and it's free money." That's, I think, is a wrong perspective, when people are on call, they have to be somewhere near their computer/internet connection and be ready to work (so it is not just you can go to a party and if call happens do some quick fix in a toilet). On-calls cannot do what they want with their time, so they don't get money for free.
- nineteen999 6y ago
  Yeah this is true although our compensation for their time is pretty generous. As a team we are pretty flexible too and if somebody has an event they want to go to they can always find someone else on the team to cover or swap with them for the night.
machello13 6y ago
> Easy, as well as the financial compensation, we give them time in lieu. Two hours callout in the middle of the night, two (paid) hours given back on their next working day, or whenever they prefer, subject to availability of other staff. Every company should do this but none I've worked at do. To be honest, I just take the makeup time myself.