4 ms·

I have to wonder about the extent to which the CIA really believed this was possible, or if it was more along the lines of "well sure, it sounds batshit, but th

I have to wonder about the extent to which the CIA really believed this was possible, or if it was more along the lines of "well sure, it sounds batshit, but the Soviets are doing it and if there really is something to it, we don't want to be behind in the game." When one has infinite funding and no ethical oversight, the pit really is bottomless.

sterlind 6y ago
Mkultra seems pretty plausible to me, at least with the science they had at the time. LSD was making huge waves in the psychiatric community, and many humint objectives like interrogation and brainwashing are inherently applied psychology. LSD was a breakthrough tool that laid the psyche bare, if only they could discover how to harness it. Combine that with amoral thinking about the cold war and "greater good" and it's understandable, yet reprehensible, that they dosed prisoners and johns in brothels.
- csilverman 6y ago
  It's funny you mention that, because the first thing that crosses my mind, whenever I run across stuff like this, is that the people who perpetrated these things were probably nice polite folks who had friends, got along with their neighbors, were kind to their families, and held the door open for people when they went to the supermarket. And then they went to work every morning and played their part in monstrous endeavors that—on coming to light—make the rest of us question our faith in humanity. I don't doubt that some people who wind up doing these things are legitimately sociopathic. But I also have a disturbing suspicion that many of them were probably normal, and bought into the idea that drugging and blackmailing some random person played a role in defending America. What matters more—some lowlife from the streets, or national security? Sacrifices have to be made, etc. Pretty much every atrocity I know of—while spearheaded by evil people—relied heavily on the ability of normal, decent people to rationalize what they were doing.
AndrewBissell 6y ago
It's more likely, given the CIA's provenance, that the initial idea came from the Nazi prison camp experiments.
ganzuul 6y ago
It would be poetically just if people who constantly lie lost the ability to discern the truth. If someone has a slightly more rigorous justification for the notion I would be happy to hear it.
HillRat 6y ago
Sidney Gottlieb, the chemist (not to say poisoner) who oversaw a lot of CIA’s dirty work, must have believed in what he was doing, because he lived long enough to regret it (and turn to advocating pacifism and good works).
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  Very hard to view this as some kind of genuine development of a conscience, given that he never corrected the perjury he committed during the Congressional testimony for which he was granted blanket immunity for his role in MKULTRA.

sterlind 6y ago

Mkultra seems pretty plausible to me, at least with the science they had at the time. LSD was making huge waves in the psychiatric community, and many humint objectives like interrogation and brainwashing are inherently applied psychology. LSD was a breakthrough tool that laid the psyche bare, if only they could discover how to harness it. Combine that with amoral thinking about the cold war and "greater good" and it's understandable, yet reprehensible, that they dosed prisoners and johns in brothels.

csilverman 6y ago
It's funny you mention that, because the first thing that crosses my mind, whenever I run across stuff like this, is that the people who perpetrated these things were probably nice polite folks who had friends, got along with their neighbors, were kind to their families, and held the door open for people when they went to the supermarket. And then they went to work every morning and played their part in monstrous endeavors that—on coming to light—make the rest of us question our faith in humanity. I don't doubt that some people who wind up doing these things are legitimately sociopathic. But I also have a disturbing suspicion that many of them were probably normal, and bought into the idea that drugging and blackmailing some random person played a role in defending America. What matters more—some lowlife from the streets, or national security? Sacrifices have to be made, etc. Pretty much every atrocity I know of—while spearheaded by evil people—relied heavily on the ability of normal, decent people to rationalize what they were doing.

AndrewBissell 6y ago

It's more likely, given the CIA's provenance, that the initial idea came from the Nazi prison camp experiments.

ganzuul 6y ago

It would be poetically just if people who constantly lie lost the ability to discern the truth. If someone has a slightly more rigorous justification for the notion I would be happy to hear it.

HillRat 6y ago

Sidney Gottlieb, the chemist (not to say poisoner) who oversaw a lot of CIA’s dirty work, must have believed in what he was doing, because he lived long enough to regret it (and turn to advocating pacifism and good works).

AndrewBissell 6y ago
Very hard to view this as some kind of genuine development of a conscience, given that he never corrected the perjury he committed during the Congressional testimony for which he was granted blanket immunity for his role in MKULTRA.