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I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. But, let's say he does have a working compiler. It's

I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. But, let's say he does have a working compiler. It's very probable that he does. Why doesn't he release it, then? Well you see, the only way it's possible to really effectively criticize a programming language is to use it. By not releasing the compiler, he avoids real criticism. So, no, I don't take him seriously on PL design. At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud.

gpm 6y ago
> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. I really doubt this. The amount of effort and acting that would need to go into being able to script in advance the sort of mistakes you make when programming would be astronomic. You would have to never make a typo when you weren't supposed to, always make a typo when you are, somehow deal with the fact that when you get stuck you need to be able to respond to audience feedback, and so on and so forth. (Oh, and interactive 3d programs not just text to a terminal). That's a lot harder than making a programming language. > Why doesn't he release it, then? Because he doesn't think public feedback would be helpful at this time. Because he wants to release software that he can take pride in instead of a alpha level programming language. Because that's what he is used to from game development. Because he feels like it. Etc. Why does it matter? You aren't entitled to it.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not entitled to shit, but he's also not entitled to a platform. He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.
  - mkishi 6y ago
    > If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation. The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions. Instead, you're condescending: > I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. > He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears. Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements? He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat. The guy's a magician, not a programmer.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      > He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation. I've only ever seen him cut people down. Then again, I haven't watched every minute of his streams. Maybe he's found good drugs lately. > The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions. So, no link? > Instead, you're condescending Again, have you every actually listened to Johnathan? And you call me condescending? Wow... > Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements? I have no idea. I haven't used the language, so I don't have any feedback to give. > He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat. I'm not saying it's likely. I'm saying it's possible. > The guy's a magician, not a programmer. You DO know that it's the job of magicians to fool people, right? In that, we might actually agree.
saagarjha 6y ago
> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. Creating a Python script that makes it look like you have an actual compiler is harder than you think it is. > At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud. I wouldn't say he is scared of criticism, more like he is not yet at the state that he wants to accept criticism. I wouldn't want people to comment on my half-finished projects too, but this doesn't mean I can't say that something else couldn't be better.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  If he doesn't want to accept criticism then why is he streaming about it?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    So people can watch him develop software? The same reason why you might stream a "let's play" but not be interested in somebody commenting on how bad of a gamer you are?
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      The issue is that he uses that platform to criticize other languages. That's my root problem, here. If all he did was write code, then nobody would care.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        Ok, would you be happier about it if he wrote blog posts and never came up with Jai at all?
        the_hoser 6y ago
        I'd be okay if he never spoke about it as the next big thing in programming with no intention of releasing it for public criticism. It's 100% okay to have private, in-house tools.
StavrosK 6y ago
Why is the default that everyone should release the things they make? Maybe he just wants to use it for himself and is uninterested in anyone else using it.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  I'd be 100% okay with that. That's not all he's doing, though.
hobofan 6y ago
I'm not a PL designer, but from everything I've heard him say regarding PL design, I agree with your assessment that one probably shouldn't take PL design advice from him (or at the least take them with a grain of salt). However I don't think there is any need to suggest he's a "fraud", the language is "fantasy" or faked for the stream. I also don't think that there is any need for him to release the compiler. Have you considered that Jai is just a hobby project? Many programmers choose writing a programming language as a hobby project so why shouldn't he? Releasing a compiler to the public and having everyone demand that he also maintains it for every corner case they have is a lot less fun than just working on it for your own scope and showing it off/discussing it in your stream.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  If that's all that he did, then I'd have no concerns. He likes to talk down other up-coming programming languages, too. But they've got something his language doesn't.
  - fsociety 6y ago
    Did he say something that offended you? He shares his opinions to people who ask about it. Often his opinions are shared on his livestream - which is an environment he ultimately owns. I’m a bit shocked at your attitude with this. Your conviction is unnerving. The existence of jai doesn’t prevent the existence of Rust or other languages.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      He's said a lot of of things that I've found offensive. I don't have a problem with the alleged existence of Jai.

gpm 6y ago

> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. I really doubt this. The amount of effort and acting that would need to go into being able to script in advance the sort of mistakes you make when programming would be astronomic. You would have to never make a typo when you weren't supposed to, always make a typo when you are, somehow deal with the fact that when you get stuck you need to be able to respond to audience feedback, and so on and so forth. (Oh, and interactive 3d programs not just text to a terminal). That's a lot harder than making a programming language. > Why doesn't he release it, then? Because he doesn't think public feedback would be helpful at this time. Because he wants to release software that he can take pride in instead of a alpha level programming language. Because that's what he is used to from game development. Because he feels like it. Etc. Why does it matter? You aren't entitled to it.

the_hoser 6y ago
If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not entitled to shit, but he's also not entitled to a platform. He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.
- mkishi 6y ago
  > If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation. The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions. Instead, you're condescending: > I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. > He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears. Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements? He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat. The guy's a magician, not a programmer.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    > He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation. I've only ever seen him cut people down. Then again, I haven't watched every minute of his streams. Maybe he's found good drugs lately. > The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions. So, no link? > Instead, you're condescending Again, have you every actually listened to Johnathan? And you call me condescending? Wow... > Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements? I have no idea. I haven't used the language, so I don't have any feedback to give. > He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat. I'm not saying it's likely. I'm saying it's possible. > The guy's a magician, not a programmer. You DO know that it's the job of magicians to fool people, right? In that, we might actually agree.

saagarjha 6y ago

> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. Creating a Python script that makes it look like you have an actual compiler is harder than you think it is. > At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud. I wouldn't say he is scared of criticism, more like he is not yet at the state that he wants to accept criticism. I wouldn't want people to comment on my half-finished projects too, but this doesn't mean I can't say that something else couldn't be better.

the_hoser 6y ago
If he doesn't want to accept criticism then why is he streaming about it?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  So people can watch him develop software? The same reason why you might stream a "let's play" but not be interested in somebody commenting on how bad of a gamer you are?
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    The issue is that he uses that platform to criticize other languages. That's my root problem, here. If all he did was write code, then nobody would care.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Ok, would you be happier about it if he wrote blog posts and never came up with Jai at all?
      - the_hoser 6y ago
        I'd be okay if he never spoke about it as the next big thing in programming with no intention of releasing it for public criticism. It's 100% okay to have private, in-house tools.

StavrosK 6y ago

Why is the default that everyone should release the things they make? Maybe he just wants to use it for himself and is uninterested in anyone else using it.

the_hoser 6y ago
I'd be 100% okay with that. That's not all he's doing, though.

hobofan 6y ago

I'm not a PL designer, but from everything I've heard him say regarding PL design, I agree with your assessment that one probably shouldn't take PL design advice from him (or at the least take them with a grain of salt). However I don't think there is any need to suggest he's a "fraud", the language is "fantasy" or faked for the stream. I also don't think that there is any need for him to release the compiler. Have you considered that Jai is just a hobby project? Many programmers choose writing a programming language as a hobby project so why shouldn't he? Releasing a compiler to the public and having everyone demand that he also maintains it for every corner case they have is a lot less fun than just working on it for your own scope and showing it off/discussing it in your stream.

the_hoser 6y ago
If that's all that he did, then I'd have no concerns. He likes to talk down other up-coming programming languages, too. But they've got something his language doesn't.
- fsociety 6y ago
  Did he say something that offended you? He shares his opinions to people who ask about it. Often his opinions are shared on his livestream - which is an environment he ultimately owns. I’m a bit shocked at your attitude with this. Your conviction is unnerving. The existence of jai doesn’t prevent the existence of Rust or other languages.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    He's said a lot of of things that I've found offensive. I don't have a problem with the alleged existence of Jai.