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> You get paid an excellent defense sector salary unconditionally I would imagine CIA officers get a regular civil service salary, which is emphatically not th

> You get paid an excellent defense sector salary unconditionally I would imagine CIA officers get a regular civil service salary, which is emphatically not the high salaries that contractors earn.

throwaway894345 6y ago
> I would imagine CIA officers get a regular civil service salary What is a "regular civil service salary"? Presumably CIA officers are better paid than the clerk behind the DMV counter? Perhaps a CIA officer salary is still "excellent" if not on par with defense contractors?
- cameldrv 6y ago
  It would be on the GS scale [1]. The GS scale has a set of levels and steps. If you're promoted, you generally go up a GS level. You go up steps with more time in service. There are a number of adjustments, including an adjustment for cost of living. Generally if you only have a bachelor's, you're limited to GS-9. Of course, the federal government provides excellent job security and good benefits, but the salary is not competitive for a software person. The main problem is that the GS system essentially assumes that all PhDs and all Master's degrees are equally valuable, but the private market does not agree. [1] https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2020 https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2020
  - AndrewKemendo 6y ago
    One correction here is that you are not limited to GS-9 with a BS only. GS-9 is often people with zero experience and a BS only depending on the position - like everything it's based on competitiveness. Recognize that the GS scale starts with people who have no formal education at all.
    - grier 6y ago
      Starting out of school with a BS in computer science or computer engineering was GS 7 or 8, so around $40-50k/year. The salaries are public for each level. Additional degrees do not move you off the GS scale. Reaching the equivalent of executive level can mean moving beyond GS to the senior executive service (SES).
  - emmelaich 6y ago
    I suspect places that require particular expertise have some mechanism to pay above the scale. That's the case in Australia, anyway.
    - AlexDanger 6y ago
      How do you know this?
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    But is total compensation competitive? I suspect it is closer than it seems since a career in the federal government can leave you retiring in your fifties getting nearly as much as you were making in the last few years until the day you die. Additionally, you continue to receive all the health benefits. I don't know of any tech companies offering defined benefit plans and health insurance after you retire.
- jdm2212 6y ago
  Federal civil service is all on the same scale, and it tops out below what new grad engineers typically make at defense contractors, to say nothing of FAANG.
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    There are (legitimate) ways to get paid more in government service. Years ago, I sold a Ferrari to a guy who worked on nuclear weapons at Los Alamos. His boss drove a Lamborghini. I've never understood how this fit in with the whole GS scale thing, but the reasoning was straightforward: if we don't pay them well, somebody else might.
    - rprenger 6y ago
      The employees of the DOE labs aren't civil servants on the GS scale. They're paid more like defense contractors. The base salaries at a DOE lab can be comparable to FAANG base salaries if you ignore RSU part of the compensation you also get at a FAANG (which can be a significant portion of the overall salary).
      - bumby 6y ago
        Can you explain? I thought they were compressed pay “bands” still limited ton the GS pay scale? E.g., DB pay band still tops out at the equivalent of GS15
        tingletech 6y ago
        the federal government is not the employer of anyone I've ever met from a Department of Energy Lab. LBNL you work for the University of California. LLNL and LANL used to be the same, but UC lost the contract to run LLNL and LANL in 2006. Bectel and UC formed a partnership that still has LLNL but got fired from LANL.
        bumby 6y ago
        Ah, ok I don’t think agencies like national labs are true “civil servant” employers but quasi civil servants and essentially contractors. I was referring to DoD labs
delfinom 6y ago
I also assure you the only people working for defense contractors with high salaries are the executives. Engineers are high but majority are nowhere even near tech industry high.

> You get paid an excellent defense sector salary unconditionally I would imagine CIA officers get a regular civil service salary, which is emphatically not the high salaries that contractors earn.

throwaway894345 6y ago

> I would imagine CIA officers get a regular civil service salary What is a "regular civil service salary"? Presumably CIA officers are better paid than the clerk behind the DMV counter? Perhaps a CIA officer salary is still "excellent" if not on par with defense contractors?

cameldrv 6y ago
It would be on the GS scale [1]. The GS scale has a set of levels and steps. If you're promoted, you generally go up a GS level. You go up steps with more time in service. There are a number of adjustments, including an adjustment for cost of living. Generally if you only have a bachelor's, you're limited to GS-9. Of course, the federal government provides excellent job security and good benefits, but the salary is not competitive for a software person. The main problem is that the GS system essentially assumes that all PhDs and all Master's degrees are equally valuable, but the private market does not agree. [1] https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2020 https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2020
- AndrewKemendo 6y ago
  One correction here is that you are not limited to GS-9 with a BS only. GS-9 is often people with zero experience and a BS only depending on the position - like everything it's based on competitiveness. Recognize that the GS scale starts with people who have no formal education at all.
  - grier 6y ago
    Starting out of school with a BS in computer science or computer engineering was GS 7 or 8, so around $40-50k/year. The salaries are public for each level. Additional degrees do not move you off the GS scale. Reaching the equivalent of executive level can mean moving beyond GS to the senior executive service (SES).
- emmelaich 6y ago
  I suspect places that require particular expertise have some mechanism to pay above the scale. That's the case in Australia, anyway.
  - AlexDanger 6y ago
    How do you know this?
- jjeaff 6y ago
  But is total compensation competitive? I suspect it is closer than it seems since a career in the federal government can leave you retiring in your fifties getting nearly as much as you were making in the last few years until the day you die. Additionally, you continue to receive all the health benefits. I don't know of any tech companies offering defined benefit plans and health insurance after you retire.
jdm2212 6y ago
Federal civil service is all on the same scale, and it tops out below what new grad engineers typically make at defense contractors, to say nothing of FAANG.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  There are (legitimate) ways to get paid more in government service. Years ago, I sold a Ferrari to a guy who worked on nuclear weapons at Los Alamos. His boss drove a Lamborghini. I've never understood how this fit in with the whole GS scale thing, but the reasoning was straightforward: if we don't pay them well, somebody else might.
  - rprenger 6y ago
    The employees of the DOE labs aren't civil servants on the GS scale. They're paid more like defense contractors. The base salaries at a DOE lab can be comparable to FAANG base salaries if you ignore RSU part of the compensation you also get at a FAANG (which can be a significant portion of the overall salary).
    - bumby 6y ago
      Can you explain? I thought they were compressed pay “bands” still limited ton the GS pay scale? E.g., DB pay band still tops out at the equivalent of GS15
      - tingletech 6y ago
        the federal government is not the employer of anyone I've ever met from a Department of Energy Lab. LBNL you work for the University of California. LLNL and LANL used to be the same, but UC lost the contract to run LLNL and LANL in 2006. Bectel and UC formed a partnership that still has LLNL but got fired from LANL.
        bumby 6y ago
        Ah, ok I don’t think agencies like national labs are true “civil servant” employers but quasi civil servants and essentially contractors. I was referring to DoD labs

delfinom 6y ago

I also assure you the only people working for defense contractors with high salaries are the executives. Engineers are high but majority are nowhere even near tech industry high.