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Unfortunately there are a lot of people around these parts who have arrived at the conclusion that the only way to build software today is using all those servi

Unfortunately there are a lot of people around these parts who have arrived at the conclusion that the only way to build software today is using all those services and more (I mean, where's kubernetes in that stack?). They will aggressively defend their role which is no longer about creating software but instead entirely about weaving together a myriad of components.

throwawaygh 6y ago
Playing with legos is easier then delivering value.
- kennu 6y ago
  Playing with legos is delivering value. Reinventing the same wheel over and over again is not.
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    What's often missed here is that the problem the lego is slotted in to is often subtly different each time. So you have a guy building an 8x2 lego brick that slots perfectly into his mansion and then someone else really needs to cut a corner off of it to fit their problem. But the original designer never gave you the option to do that so now you have to write an adapter to plug the 8x2 into an 8x2 without a corner. It only looks like reinventing the wheel every time if you're completely ignorant of the subtle differences of each problem domain. And if you make a bunch of changes to create arbitrary lego bricks then now everyone has to learn your brick framework before they can make an 8x2 brick.
    - kennu 6y ago
      I agree. You have to know your lego blocks well and understand where they fit and where they don't. But if you choose to remain ignorant of the available lego blocks, and instead write everything from scratch every time, you're wasting a lot of effort.
      - Igelau 6y ago
        > But if you choose to remain ignorant of the available lego blocks, and instead write everything from scratch every time, you're wasting a lot of effort. That's a good seam upon which to filet this analogy. A quick Google search turns up uncertainty as to how many different bricks there are. It could be in the 3000s, 6800s, or over 12000. We are all ignorant of the available lego blocks.
        kennu 6y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what you mean. But if we're talking about AWS cloud services, there are certainly AWS experts who know how to develop software in a cloud-native way and utilize most or all of the relevant services. That knowledge is what we are paid for. It's also true that there are a lot of AWS services available and expertise is divided into different specialty areas, like ML, IoT, etc. Hard to be expert at everything.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    Agreed but that is not what is happening though ; people do both; they use legos and reinvent the wheel. Making everything, imho, worse. The authentication thingy you got as lego block did not quite fit and now you are using more code than the module has in it to add what you need for it to do, making the original module probably impossible to upgrade without a lot of work and creating a problem for maintenance. Now you can fix this by telling your client; ok, I won’t do this because your idea of auth is wrong. But then the client might kick me out (probably not a bad plan if they are doing trivial things significantly different than the rest of the world). I can just implement it like I mentioned above and make money maintaining it (risking having also to maintain the original lib). Or I can just make a new lib and for which I know it does what it was. Then, my favourite option, is just take something that just works already, deploy that and adapt a few people their habits around it. It fits 95%, stop whining. The least popular option ofcourse, so there we are, creating slightly different wheels with millions of almost the same LoC and unused andor unmanaged libs that should not have been written or used, again, imho.
    - kennu 6y ago
      I have different experiences. My "lego blocks" are AWS services. Each service is a black box that maintains its API backwards compatible forever. My custom stuff is built around the API and keeps working forever. ( * ) In my view AWS has been very successful in maintaining this backwards compatible model even when they often add new features to services. There are sometimes edge cases that are not possible to implement, but they are rarer and rarer as the service portfolio grows. In those cases the only option is to write your own container and deal with the usual package-level dependency issues in whatever programming language you use. ( * ) The only thing that doesn't work forever is Node.js, which is deprecated every few years and needs to be upgraded to a new major version. I'm looking forward to the possibility of WebAssembly/Deno replacing Node.js as an "evergreen" application platform.
      - tluyben2 6y ago
        What are you paying though? The most common reason I get pulled in is because of exorbitant aws bills which eclipse dev bills... This sound expensive.
  - allo37 6y ago
    Is it the same wheel? It sounds like you wanted a Honda Civic, but you used the wheels from an Abrams tank. So obviously the solution is to invent a tank wheel <> Civic chassis adapter layer?
Whatanacc123 6y ago
This is because the labour market demands people build resumes, not software.
outworlder 6y ago
Kubernetes is amazing when engineers need it. Kubernetes sucks when managers need it.
- Sharlin 6y ago
  Never underestimate the number of engineers that convince themselves they need something because it is trendy and sounds cool.
friendlybus 6y ago
>They will aggressively defend their role which is no longer about creating software but instead entirely about weaving together a myriad of components. Same thing is happening with mechanics. Young mechanics repairing parts less often, more handing off parts in need of minor repair to specialists and a focus on fitting parts.

throwawaygh 6y ago

Playing with legos is easier then delivering value.

kennu 6y ago
Playing with legos is delivering value. Reinventing the same wheel over and over again is not.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  What's often missed here is that the problem the lego is slotted in to is often subtly different each time. So you have a guy building an 8x2 lego brick that slots perfectly into his mansion and then someone else really needs to cut a corner off of it to fit their problem. But the original designer never gave you the option to do that so now you have to write an adapter to plug the 8x2 into an 8x2 without a corner. It only looks like reinventing the wheel every time if you're completely ignorant of the subtle differences of each problem domain. And if you make a bunch of changes to create arbitrary lego bricks then now everyone has to learn your brick framework before they can make an 8x2 brick.
  - kennu 6y ago
    I agree. You have to know your lego blocks well and understand where they fit and where they don't. But if you choose to remain ignorant of the available lego blocks, and instead write everything from scratch every time, you're wasting a lot of effort.
    - Igelau 6y ago
      > But if you choose to remain ignorant of the available lego blocks, and instead write everything from scratch every time, you're wasting a lot of effort. That's a good seam upon which to filet this analogy. A quick Google search turns up uncertainty as to how many different bricks there are. It could be in the 3000s, 6800s, or over 12000. We are all ignorant of the available lego blocks.
      - kennu 6y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what you mean. But if we're talking about AWS cloud services, there are certainly AWS experts who know how to develop software in a cloud-native way and utilize most or all of the relevant services. That knowledge is what we are paid for. It's also true that there are a lot of AWS services available and expertise is divided into different specialty areas, like ML, IoT, etc. Hard to be expert at everything.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  Agreed but that is not what is happening though ; people do both; they use legos and reinvent the wheel. Making everything, imho, worse. The authentication thingy you got as lego block did not quite fit and now you are using more code than the module has in it to add what you need for it to do, making the original module probably impossible to upgrade without a lot of work and creating a problem for maintenance. Now you can fix this by telling your client; ok, I won’t do this because your idea of auth is wrong. But then the client might kick me out (probably not a bad plan if they are doing trivial things significantly different than the rest of the world). I can just implement it like I mentioned above and make money maintaining it (risking having also to maintain the original lib). Or I can just make a new lib and for which I know it does what it was. Then, my favourite option, is just take something that just works already, deploy that and adapt a few people their habits around it. It fits 95%, stop whining. The least popular option ofcourse, so there we are, creating slightly different wheels with millions of almost the same LoC and unused andor unmanaged libs that should not have been written or used, again, imho.
  - kennu 6y ago
    I have different experiences. My "lego blocks" are AWS services. Each service is a black box that maintains its API backwards compatible forever. My custom stuff is built around the API and keeps working forever. ( * ) In my view AWS has been very successful in maintaining this backwards compatible model even when they often add new features to services. There are sometimes edge cases that are not possible to implement, but they are rarer and rarer as the service portfolio grows. In those cases the only option is to write your own container and deal with the usual package-level dependency issues in whatever programming language you use. ( * ) The only thing that doesn't work forever is Node.js, which is deprecated every few years and needs to be upgraded to a new major version. I'm looking forward to the possibility of WebAssembly/Deno replacing Node.js as an "evergreen" application platform.
    - tluyben2 6y ago
      What are you paying though? The most common reason I get pulled in is because of exorbitant aws bills which eclipse dev bills... This sound expensive.
- allo37 6y ago
  Is it the same wheel? It sounds like you wanted a Honda Civic, but you used the wheels from an Abrams tank. So obviously the solution is to invent a tank wheel <> Civic chassis adapter layer?

Whatanacc123 6y ago

This is because the labour market demands people build resumes, not software.

outworlder 6y ago

Kubernetes is amazing when engineers need it. Kubernetes sucks when managers need it.

Sharlin 6y ago
Never underestimate the number of engineers that convince themselves they need something because it is trendy and sounds cool.

friendlybus 6y ago

>They will aggressively defend their role which is no longer about creating software but instead entirely about weaving together a myriad of components. Same thing is happening with mechanics. Young mechanics repairing parts less often, more handing off parts in need of minor repair to specialists and a focus on fitting parts.