3 ms·

No, there is a (more or less) steady increase of urban/social complexity from Gobekli Tepe to Vinca, Maykop and Eridu. Shimao fits quite well into the picture i

by singularity2001 6y ago

No, there is a (more or less) steady increase of urban/social complexity from Gobekli Tepe to Vinca, Maykop and Eridu. Shimao fits quite well into the picture if one accepts a concentric multiwave expansion of 'civilization' with metallurgy as one of its hallmarks. The ever growing center region of course being between Mesopotamia and the Black Sea. It will be most interesting if indeed a sign system similar to the Anau seal will show up. Even before Shimao there was strong evidence that metallurgy was introduced into China from the steppe via Erlitou. Shimao just sits in the right place.

ncmncm 6y ago
Pretending does not provide insight.
darkhorse13 6y ago
How does your view make sense of things like the 40,000 year old stone bracelet made using drill tools? Link: https://www.archaeology.org/news/3270-150507-siberia-denisovan-bracelet https://www.archaeology.org/news/3270-150507-siberia-denisov... Personally, I wish more mainstream archaeologists would be brave enough to say "we don't really know", instead of fitting everything into the Ancient Near East Civilizations theory.
- singularity2001 6y ago
  Bracelets and more generally art are part of the (Epi)Paleolithic package since at least 70000BC South Africa. Claiming that these were truly made by Denisovians or similarly Neanderthals requires much more evidence in my opinion, especially since those finds coincide with the arrival of modern humans
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    I see that you missed the point about the bracelet. The point was about its method of manufacture, which does not show up anywhere else for tens of millennia. Are you claiming it was planted? Denial is good for turf defense, but not so good for truth.
    - singularity2001 6y ago
      It's not about denial, it's about integrating it into the existing framework of knowledge instead of creating a complete new theory. Very interesting discovery in any case, at the very least shifting the dates a bit (as always). Maybe you are right and homo sapiens did learn these arts from Denisovan people. Do Denisovans have a history which leads to this developmental stage? Because 'we' do and delicate stone workings are part of our skillset earlier than this find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_inventions#Upper_Paleolithic_to_Early_Mesolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_invention... Wikipedia may need an update though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill#History Summary: Not planted, but maybe traded (for women?)
      - darkhorse13 6y ago
        Trying to integrate everything into an existing framework even when there is very strong evidence that the foundation of that framework is shaky at best is a really stupid idea in my opinion. For example, if your framework begins with the assumption that advanced civilization started in Mesopotamia around 3000 BCE, every seemingly advanced discovery that originates from a time before 3000 BCE simply becomes "art" or just a stepping stone to a more complex society (as you claim Gobekli Tepe is, leading to Eridu). And it is not about creating a completely new theory, it's simply about saying "we don't really know". That is a far more open-minded approach to these kind of things. But unfortunately, we don't live in a world where people are able to let go of their egos and admit that there are gaps in our knowledge, and maybe something other than the mainstream could be closer to the truth.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        Delicate stone workings is one thing, rotary machine tools is wholly another. Tens of millennia is not "a bit". Tens of millennia is "Holy Shit", or you are just not paying attention.
ncmncm 6y ago
To suggest anything "steady" between the end of GT c. 9000 BP and Vinca c. 7700 bp requires willful ignorance of the magnitude of 1300 years. And to suggest Shimao is somehow unsurprising flies in the face of a century of sinology, which offers no hint of any large-scale organization anywhere in China, never mind there. Erlitou postdates Shimao by four centuries.

ncmncm 6y ago

Pretending does not provide insight.

darkhorse13 6y ago

How does your view make sense of things like the 40,000 year old stone bracelet made using drill tools? Link: https://www.archaeology.org/news/3270-150507-siberia-denisovan-bracelet https://www.archaeology.org/news/3270-150507-siberia-denisov... Personally, I wish more mainstream archaeologists would be brave enough to say "we don't really know", instead of fitting everything into the Ancient Near East Civilizations theory.

singularity2001 6y ago
Bracelets and more generally art are part of the (Epi)Paleolithic package since at least 70000BC South Africa. Claiming that these were truly made by Denisovians or similarly Neanderthals requires much more evidence in my opinion, especially since those finds coincide with the arrival of modern humans
- ncmncm 6y ago
  I see that you missed the point about the bracelet. The point was about its method of manufacture, which does not show up anywhere else for tens of millennia. Are you claiming it was planted? Denial is good for turf defense, but not so good for truth.
  - singularity2001 6y ago
    It's not about denial, it's about integrating it into the existing framework of knowledge instead of creating a complete new theory. Very interesting discovery in any case, at the very least shifting the dates a bit (as always). Maybe you are right and homo sapiens did learn these arts from Denisovan people. Do Denisovans have a history which leads to this developmental stage? Because 'we' do and delicate stone workings are part of our skillset earlier than this find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_inventions#Upper_Paleolithic_to_Early_Mesolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_invention... Wikipedia may need an update though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill#History Summary: Not planted, but maybe traded (for women?)
    - darkhorse13 6y ago
      Trying to integrate everything into an existing framework even when there is very strong evidence that the foundation of that framework is shaky at best is a really stupid idea in my opinion. For example, if your framework begins with the assumption that advanced civilization started in Mesopotamia around 3000 BCE, every seemingly advanced discovery that originates from a time before 3000 BCE simply becomes "art" or just a stepping stone to a more complex society (as you claim Gobekli Tepe is, leading to Eridu). And it is not about creating a completely new theory, it's simply about saying "we don't really know". That is a far more open-minded approach to these kind of things. But unfortunately, we don't live in a world where people are able to let go of their egos and admit that there are gaps in our knowledge, and maybe something other than the mainstream could be closer to the truth.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      Delicate stone workings is one thing, rotary machine tools is wholly another. Tens of millennia is not "a bit". Tens of millennia is "Holy Shit", or you are just not paying attention.

ncmncm 6y ago

To suggest anything "steady" between the end of GT c. 9000 BP and Vinca c. 7700 bp requires willful ignorance of the magnitude of 1300 years. And to suggest Shimao is somehow unsurprising flies in the face of a century of sinology, which offers no hint of any large-scale organization anywhere in China, never mind there. Erlitou postdates Shimao by four centuries.