5 ms·

The New, Nicer Nero

44 points by kevinskii 6y ago

aleyan 6y ago
With only one foreign conflict[0] at Rome's behest, Neros reign was remarkably peaceful too. The other day I was casually reading the wikipedia article for Commodus[1] the baddy Emperor from the movie Gladiator and noted how peaceful his rule was. His only wars were when he was co-emperor with his father Marcus Aurelius, and ended when Commodus became solo ruler. By contrast, Marcus Aurelius[2] entire reign was at war and and he is marked by history as the last of the Five Good Emperors. Wonder how much we think of Roman Emperors comes from the writing and propaganda of their contemporary elites. Rome had an economy based on the back of slaves [3] captured in war after all, so it would not surprise me that elites would praise hawkish Emperors and deride the doves. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#Military_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#Military_conflicts [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus#Solo_reign_(180%E2%80%93192) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus#Solo_reign_(180%E2%80... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#War_with_Parthia_(161%E2%80%93166) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#War_with_Parth... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome#Trade_and_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome#Trade_...
- agravier 6y ago
  Aurelius' positive aura and reputation for being a "good" emperor may stem from his good relation with the Senate, as the senatorial historians would have been the main determinants of what image of him gets passed down to us (albeit indirectly). The same thing would go about other emperors. Also, w.r.t. wars and other state matters, a ruler generally will not operate in vacuum, and had to account for the provincial gouvernements' needs and demands, the Senate, etc, ... and of course, the need to defend against aggression.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    His Meditations undoubtedly also play a part in how he is perceived today, do you not think so?
    - agravier 6y ago
      Yes, I think so. But I'm talking about how his actions and decisions as Emperor have echoed through history, as opposed to how others (f.e. Nero's) are remembered.
  - polytely 6y ago
    I think the fact that his writings were passed on also helps, don't know how good a person he was in actuality, but I was left with a very positive impression of him after reading meditations.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  On the telephone game of history, I enjoyed a line in 1984 (ch.7): > "There was also something called the jus primae noctis, which would probably not be mentioned in a textbook for children. It was the law by which every capitalist had the right to sleep with any woman working in one of his factories." It's not true (as we well know, being our own primary sources[1], but upon reflection, even without the explicit right, it's not exactly difficult to find some capitalists[2] who behaved as if they had had the implicit right, so neither is it strictly false. [1] and having heard the slander instead applied to feudalism [2] Pedantically, the ones who have been in the news are the capitalists' agents, the high class house servants we call CEO instead of majordomo. Actual capitalists sleeping with factory women (pace Zweig's account of the pre-1914 World of Yesterday) is generally found more in genre literature than in journalistic pages.
- hacknat 6y ago
  I don’t know about under the Emperors, but during the Republic the Senate was actually the house that tried to prevent war and the plebs tended to be hawkish. Wars tend to be sought after by up-and-comers.
- machello13 6y ago
  > Wonder how much we think of Roman Emperors comes from the writing and propaganda of their contemporary elites. Almost all of it. Most of the time, all we have to go off are the Roman historians, which are notoriously extremely biased. You learn pretty quickly in any Classical Studies program to unlearn a lot of the preconceptions about Rome and its history that are embedded in modern culture.
- aitchnyu 6y ago
  Would Marcus have gotten better results from bribing the invaders, like Commodus did? Scholar Pierre Hadot apparently endorses Marcus and descendants risking their life for 400 years at Roman frontiers. The five good emperors were not sons of their emperor. Marcus offered Caesar title to Pomeianus, a great general who didnt have nepotism to back his rise, married Marcus's daughter Lucilla and provided the inspiration to Maximus in Gladiator. He refused it the three times it was offered. We could have had six good emperors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Claudius_Pompeianus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Claudius_Pompeianus
indigodaddy 6y ago
At very first glance at the article name I thought this might be about the old Windows CD burning application coming back to life...
- supersrdjan 6y ago
  Genius product name... burning ROMs :D
  - indigodaddy 6y ago
    Apparently it’s still a thing! I don’t use Windows much except for work so wasn’t aware: https://www.nero.com/eng/downloads/previous-versions/nero-product-line-2019.php https://www.nero.com/eng/downloads/previous-versions/nero-pr...
  - jansan 6y ago
    Yes, "Nero - Burning ROM" is one of the best product names ever (on par with "Cillit Bang"). I would love to see a video from the brainstorming session when they came up with that name.
    - kaoD 6y ago
      Huh, I don't get the Cillit Bang genius. Care to explain?
      - xellisx 6y ago
        Think along the lines of Geese Spot...
        kaoD 6y ago
        Not a native speaker and that actually confused me more :P
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Oh. I can't believe I never got that.
Brendinooo 6y ago
> “When you look at the evidence here, you can play it any which way,” says Drinkwater. “The great joy of doing ancient history is taking the bits you’ve got and putting them together—let’s be honest—more or less the way you feel. I got to know Nero, and I always felt that he couldn’t have done this to his mother in cold blood. This gives away the game. Yes, his mom died, but he couldn't have done it. Yes, he killed Christians, but it wasn't as bad as people thought. Yes, he sang while Rome burned, but hey, Oppenheimer said "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds", which is basically the same thing. It's a fun read, and it's interesting to see how historical narratives get formed. It did make a good case that he might not as bad as the worst narratives say. But I wouldn't go much further than that.
- TT3351 6y ago
  We really know very little with certainty about the ancient and classical chapters of our history. Even the medieval period is very spotty.
scottlocklin 6y ago
It's always amusing to know what's going on with "the latest" in classics, however, modern classicists are, to put it kindly, almost all completely full of shit, preferring to publish contrarian, obvious bullshit to the difficult task of examining the evidence and drawing new and interesting conclusions (I dunno; someone like Gregario Maranon's examination of the character of Tiberius seemed to add to the conversation). For example; it's presently wildly popular to believe that the Germanic invasions were peaceful multiculturalism, rather than, you know, a civilization ending event. I assume because the twee nincompoops who populate modern Classics departments are made uncomfortable by the parallels with present day barbarian invasions of Europe. There is zero actual evidence for this; in fact, looking at the archaeological, numismatic and philological evidence; it's abundantly obvious [0] that Rome wasn't peacefully transformed by Teutonic multiculturalism, but was in fact, sacked by barbarians and ruined forever. Similarly, while I'm no Nero expert, and I think it would be interesting if Nero was a misunderstood bunny rabbit and his witch of a mother a "hidden figure" who would have made a great Elizabeth, I strongly suspect the ancient and later writers and views on Nero and Aggripina will turn out to be more accurate than something out of modern nincompoop Classics departments, populated with the likes of Zuck's dumb younger sister[1]. I could be wrong! And Smithsonian could also be misrepresenting the thesis of the book, but Nero being a jerk seems more likely than not. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Ward-Perkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Ward-Perkins [1] https://eidolon.pub/@donnazuckerberg https://eidolon.pub/@donnazuckerberg -hilarious trash writer, taken seriously because there are less disapproving tweedy types around, and because her brother is a billionaire
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  > ...modern Classics departments are made uncomfortable by the parallels with present day barbarian invasions of Europe. Present day invasions?
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  Well, here's the thing - so much previously accepted history was a complete crock. The (extreme) contrarian reports are what stand out, but even if they are only correct a small % of the time, they provide an impetus for history to become more accurate. In your rant about Nero, you hint at this: even if the more ancient writers are more correct, there is great value in the recent re-telling. Otherwise, the incorrectness in the Nero story would never be less wrong. Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of the overall situation - I think modern scholars are much more likely to be rigorous. Have you ever read 1491? In the "Numbers from Nowhere" section, it details how bad the methodology was in early indigenous population estimates... That kind of lazy/biased/incompetent historical research appears all too common, when evaluating older historians' methodologies.

44 points by kevinskii 6y ago

With only one foreign conflict[0] at Rome's behest, Neros reign was remarkably peaceful too. The other day I was casually reading the wikipedia article for Commodus[1] the baddy Emperor from the movie Gladiator and noted how peaceful his rule was. His only wars were when he was co-emperor with his father Marcus Aurelius, and ended when Commodus became solo ruler. By contrast, Marcus Aurelius[2] entire reign was at war and and he is marked by history as the last of the Five Good Emperors. Wonder how much we think of Roman Emperors comes from the writing and propaganda of their contemporary elites. Rome had an economy based on the back of slaves [3] captured in war after all, so it would not surprise me that elites would praise hawkish Emperors and deride the doves. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#Military_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#Military_conflicts [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus#Solo_reign_(180%E2%80%93192) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus#Solo_reign_(180%E2%80... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#War_with_Parthia_(161%E2%80%93166) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#War_with_Parth... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome#Trade_and_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome#Trade_...

agravier 6y ago
Aurelius' positive aura and reputation for being a "good" emperor may stem from his good relation with the Senate, as the senatorial historians would have been the main determinants of what image of him gets passed down to us (albeit indirectly). The same thing would go about other emperors. Also, w.r.t. wars and other state matters, a ruler generally will not operate in vacuum, and had to account for the provincial gouvernements' needs and demands, the Senate, etc, ... and of course, the need to defend against aggression.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  His Meditations undoubtedly also play a part in how he is perceived today, do you not think so?
  - agravier 6y ago
    Yes, I think so. But I'm talking about how his actions and decisions as Emperor have echoed through history, as opposed to how others (f.e. Nero's) are remembered.
- polytely 6y ago
  I think the fact that his writings were passed on also helps, don't know how good a person he was in actuality, but I was left with a very positive impression of him after reading meditations.
082349872349872 6y ago
On the telephone game of history, I enjoyed a line in 1984 (ch.7): > "There was also something called the jus primae noctis, which would probably not be mentioned in a textbook for children. It was the law by which every capitalist had the right to sleep with any woman working in one of his factories." It's not true (as we well know, being our own primary sources[1], but upon reflection, even without the explicit right, it's not exactly difficult to find some capitalists[2] who behaved as if they had had the implicit right, so neither is it strictly false. [1] and having heard the slander instead applied to feudalism [2] Pedantically, the ones who have been in the news are the capitalists' agents, the high class house servants we call CEO instead of majordomo. Actual capitalists sleeping with factory women (pace Zweig's account of the pre-1914 World of Yesterday) is generally found more in genre literature than in journalistic pages.
hacknat 6y ago
I don’t know about under the Emperors, but during the Republic the Senate was actually the house that tried to prevent war and the plebs tended to be hawkish. Wars tend to be sought after by up-and-comers.
machello13 6y ago
> Wonder how much we think of Roman Emperors comes from the writing and propaganda of their contemporary elites. Almost all of it. Most of the time, all we have to go off are the Roman historians, which are notoriously extremely biased. You learn pretty quickly in any Classical Studies program to unlearn a lot of the preconceptions about Rome and its history that are embedded in modern culture.
aitchnyu 6y ago
Would Marcus have gotten better results from bribing the invaders, like Commodus did? Scholar Pierre Hadot apparently endorses Marcus and descendants risking their life for 400 years at Roman frontiers. The five good emperors were not sons of their emperor. Marcus offered Caesar title to Pomeianus, a great general who didnt have nepotism to back his rise, married Marcus's daughter Lucilla and provided the inspiration to Maximus in Gladiator. He refused it the three times it was offered. We could have had six good emperors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Claudius_Pompeianus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Claudius_Pompeianus

indigodaddy 6y ago

At very first glance at the article name I thought this might be about the old Windows CD burning application coming back to life...

supersrdjan 6y ago
Genius product name... burning ROMs :D
- indigodaddy 6y ago
  Apparently it’s still a thing! I don’t use Windows much except for work so wasn’t aware: https://www.nero.com/eng/downloads/previous-versions/nero-product-line-2019.php https://www.nero.com/eng/downloads/previous-versions/nero-pr...
- jansan 6y ago
  Yes, "Nero - Burning ROM" is one of the best product names ever (on par with "Cillit Bang"). I would love to see a video from the brainstorming session when they came up with that name.
  - kaoD 6y ago
    Huh, I don't get the Cillit Bang genius. Care to explain?
    - xellisx 6y ago
      Think along the lines of Geese Spot...
      - kaoD 6y ago
        Not a native speaker and that actually confused me more :P
- jacobush 6y ago
  Oh. I can't believe I never got that.

Brendinooo 6y ago

> “When you look at the evidence here, you can play it any which way,” says Drinkwater. “The great joy of doing ancient history is taking the bits you’ve got and putting them together—let’s be honest—more or less the way you feel. I got to know Nero, and I always felt that he couldn’t have done this to his mother in cold blood. This gives away the game. Yes, his mom died, but he couldn't have done it. Yes, he killed Christians, but it wasn't as bad as people thought. Yes, he sang while Rome burned, but hey, Oppenheimer said "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds", which is basically the same thing. It's a fun read, and it's interesting to see how historical narratives get formed. It did make a good case that he might not as bad as the worst narratives say. But I wouldn't go much further than that.

TT3351 6y ago
We really know very little with certainty about the ancient and classical chapters of our history. Even the medieval period is very spotty.

scottlocklin 6y ago

It's always amusing to know what's going on with "the latest" in classics, however, modern classicists are, to put it kindly, almost all completely full of shit, preferring to publish contrarian, obvious bullshit to the difficult task of examining the evidence and drawing new and interesting conclusions (I dunno; someone like Gregario Maranon's examination of the character of Tiberius seemed to add to the conversation). For example; it's presently wildly popular to believe that the Germanic invasions were peaceful multiculturalism, rather than, you know, a civilization ending event. I assume because the twee nincompoops who populate modern Classics departments are made uncomfortable by the parallels with present day barbarian invasions of Europe. There is zero actual evidence for this; in fact, looking at the archaeological, numismatic and philological evidence; it's abundantly obvious [0] that Rome wasn't peacefully transformed by Teutonic multiculturalism, but was in fact, sacked by barbarians and ruined forever. Similarly, while I'm no Nero expert, and I think it would be interesting if Nero was a misunderstood bunny rabbit and his witch of a mother a "hidden figure" who would have made a great Elizabeth, I strongly suspect the ancient and later writers and views on Nero and Aggripina will turn out to be more accurate than something out of modern nincompoop Classics departments, populated with the likes of Zuck's dumb younger sister[1]. I could be wrong! And Smithsonian could also be misrepresenting the thesis of the book, but Nero being a jerk seems more likely than not. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Ward-Perkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Ward-Perkins [1] https://eidolon.pub/@donnazuckerberg https://eidolon.pub/@donnazuckerberg -hilarious trash writer, taken seriously because there are less disapproving tweedy types around, and because her brother is a billionaire

paulryanrogers 6y ago
> ...modern Classics departments are made uncomfortable by the parallels with present day barbarian invasions of Europe. Present day invasions?
edmundsauto 6y ago
Well, here's the thing - so much previously accepted history was a complete crock. The (extreme) contrarian reports are what stand out, but even if they are only correct a small % of the time, they provide an impetus for history to become more accurate. In your rant about Nero, you hint at this: even if the more ancient writers are more correct, there is great value in the recent re-telling. Otherwise, the incorrectness in the Nero story would never be less wrong. Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of the overall situation - I think modern scholars are much more likely to be rigorous. Have you ever read 1491? In the "Numbers from Nowhere" section, it details how bad the methodology was in early indigenous population estimates... That kind of lazy/biased/incompetent historical research appears all too common, when evaluating older historians' methodologies.