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What you just said is exactly what Atwood is saying, and what Raganwald is arguing against. If you freeze any moment in time then elitism always seems like the

What you just said is exactly what Atwood is saying, and what Raganwald is arguing against. If you freeze any moment in time then elitism always seems like the most rational choice. But if you take into account the passage of time then elitism is a losing proposition.

raganwald 18y ago
Strangely, I find myself nodding in agreement with both of you. I simply must get back on my meds. Thinking... I don't know what Atwood really meant, it's just a blog post, but I do think there is a real distinction between "Hey you! Don't do that, it's dangerous!" and "You shouldn't be allowed to do that, you're not qualified." After all, I wrote this: http://weblog.raganwald.com/2008/04/is-strictly-equivalent-to.html http://weblog.raganwald.com/2008/04/is-strictly-equivalent-t... Which is definitely a kind of "Don't do such and such" article. But while I actually write code to make things I like easier, I have no interest in sitting down and writing code to make the things I don't like harder or impossible.
jrockway 18y ago
Sure, but writing good code isn't "elitism". There are people that program for a living, but don't really "get it". They think "the elites" made up functional programming (and similar things) just to make programming harder. That's not true, the good programmers know that these abstractions make things easier. That's why we use them. However, if the "I hate thinking when I could be cutting and pasting" programmer is your blog's audience, it makes sense to agree with them. More ad revenue. I don't really see this as elitism, I see it as reality. For what it's worth, I have no problem trying to educate these developers and turn them into good programmers. My blog is mostly instructional, I give free talks at every conference I can, and I teach paid classes if companies really want to make sure their developers learn good practices. Some people can be educated, and I am always happy when people realize that writing good code is fun. However, some people really don't get what programming is about, and those people are going to criticize things that are "hard". (I really don't want to imply that Jeff Atwood is one of these types, but I don't really have any arguments disproving it.)

raganwald 18y ago

Strangely, I find myself nodding in agreement with both of you. I simply must get back on my meds. Thinking... I don't know what Atwood really meant, it's just a blog post, but I do think there is a real distinction between "Hey you! Don't do that, it's dangerous!" and "You shouldn't be allowed to do that, you're not qualified." After all, I wrote this: http://weblog.raganwald.com/2008/04/is-strictly-equivalent-to.html http://weblog.raganwald.com/2008/04/is-strictly-equivalent-t... Which is definitely a kind of "Don't do such and such" article. But while I actually write code to make things I like easier, I have no interest in sitting down and writing code to make the things I don't like harder or impossible.

jrockway 18y ago

Sure, but writing good code isn't "elitism". There are people that program for a living, but don't really "get it". They think "the elites" made up functional programming (and similar things) just to make programming harder. That's not true, the good programmers know that these abstractions make things easier. That's why we use them. However, if the "I hate thinking when I could be cutting and pasting" programmer is your blog's audience, it makes sense to agree with them. More ad revenue. I don't really see this as elitism, I see it as reality. For what it's worth, I have no problem trying to educate these developers and turn them into good programmers. My blog is mostly instructional, I give free talks at every conference I can, and I teach paid classes if companies really want to make sure their developers learn good practices. Some people can be educated, and I am always happy when people realize that writing good code is fun. However, some people really don't get what programming is about, and those people are going to criticize things that are "hard". (I really don't want to imply that Jeff Atwood is one of these types, but I don't really have any arguments disproving it.)