6 ms·

You advocate terrible policy. Someone sets up a bank to serve their community, taking investors from all over your area. They take deposits, make loans to help

You advocate terrible policy. Someone sets up a bank to serve their community, taking investors from all over your area. They take deposits, make loans to help the community grow. The management team is great at training staff to follow all banking regulations. The bank grows to hundreds of branches. Then one branch manager is bribed by a criminal to subvert banking regs and the internal control systems, so they can launder millions of dollars. You would prosecute the CEO for unknowingly employing a criminal? Or senior execs for unknowingly having security holes a clever employee could buy pass (when all control systems can be bypassed by clever employees)? You’d increase fines to bankrupt the Company and wipe out investors investment fir the crime of hiring an honest CEO and execs who got fooled by one bad Apple? Intent matters.

stainforth 6y ago
Yes absolutely.
ativzzz 6y ago
A one off situation like you describe can be limited to punishing the particular branch manager. However, banks like Deustche and JPMorgan, who seem to be having these issues nonstop with regularity, are clearly run to allow these kinds of criminals to actively participate in their banking structure with minimal oversight, hence the responsibility resting on the higher-ups.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Again no monitoring system is perfect or unbreakable. Large banks are going to seem more like they “allow” this simply because they have 10x-100x more employees. The solution to people laundering funds from selling marijuana isn’t punitive banking regulation, its legalizing marijuana. The solution to Dictators stealing from their citizens isn’t onerous banking regs on the 99.9% of honest clients, it’s removing Dictators from power.
  - ativzzz 6y ago
    > removing Dictators from power One way to remove dictators from power is to disrupt their money flows, so tighter banking regulations to prevent fraud and money laundering. > simply because they have 10x-100x more employees There are plenty of large banks who do not have this issue. Considering Deustche on its own has had more sketchy money than pretty much all other banks combined (according to the article) speaks volumes.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Please name a single dictator removed from power using banking regulations. Then explain why the banking system is used against Dictators who still have voting rights in the UN.
      - ativzzz 6y ago
        Maybe if we had better systems in place to prevent fraud and laundering, we could do better. Banking regulations are preferrable to the other means we have of removing dictators from power: war, old age, violent revolutions.
        valuearb 6y ago
        You just said not removing dictators is preferable to removing them, since all financial regulations can be evaded by dictators. You can’t name a single dictator brought down by financial regulations. And bloody war and revolution is preferable to inaction, because every day is bloody under tyranny. Averting your eyes doesn’t stop tyrants from killing and oppressing their people.
  - afurculita 6y ago
    How do you remove a dictator from power without invading that country?
hrktb 6y ago
Imagine managing a nuclear facility. One of your employee is bribed to open the valves and a whole region is flooded in nuclear waste. Would you argue that the higher up managing that facility have nothing to be blamed for, because it was just a rogue employee’s issue ? What are they even managing, if they can’t make sure to have an healthy and working organization ?
- valuearb 6y ago
  How often do you ride your straw horse? No one is saying management has no responsibility. It’s saying they should be judged on whether they put reasonable controls in and used reasonable efforts to ensure they are followed.
  - hrktb 6y ago
    The point is on “reasonable”. We are so far away from any reasonable efforts that we’d need to put pretty drastic punishments to even have a chance to tip the balance on the “too much” side. In particular in the current situation we are talking about rampant criminal behavior, it seems weird to me to go “don’t tap too hard on their fingers, they are doing all their best, sending memos every quarter to absolutely not make money though unethical ways”
    - valuearb 6y ago
      What “rampant” criminal behavior?
      - hrktb 6y ago
        Do you currently see banks as a bastion of straightness and uncorrupted values ? We have scandals after scandals for as long as I can remember, from the pettiest levels (opening sub accounts without telling clients to meet sales figures, blacklisting bankers from the whole profession when they dare refusing to play along) to nation wide crisis inducing levels.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
Well, the CEO get’s paid life-changing money for that position, sure there should be some life-changing liability
- valuearb 6y ago
  Would you take a job paying $10M a year if you will spend the rest of your life in prison if a single one of your ten thousand employees commits a felony?
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago
    Then maybe we should check whether the existence of entities capable of paying such amounts tot the executive is a sustainable way to have a business?

stainforth 6y ago

Yes absolutely.

ativzzz 6y ago

A one off situation like you describe can be limited to punishing the particular branch manager. However, banks like Deustche and JPMorgan, who seem to be having these issues nonstop with regularity, are clearly run to allow these kinds of criminals to actively participate in their banking structure with minimal oversight, hence the responsibility resting on the higher-ups.

valuearb 6y ago
Again no monitoring system is perfect or unbreakable. Large banks are going to seem more like they “allow” this simply because they have 10x-100x more employees. The solution to people laundering funds from selling marijuana isn’t punitive banking regulation, its legalizing marijuana. The solution to Dictators stealing from their citizens isn’t onerous banking regs on the 99.9% of honest clients, it’s removing Dictators from power.
- ativzzz 6y ago
  > removing Dictators from power One way to remove dictators from power is to disrupt their money flows, so tighter banking regulations to prevent fraud and money laundering. > simply because they have 10x-100x more employees There are plenty of large banks who do not have this issue. Considering Deustche on its own has had more sketchy money than pretty much all other banks combined (according to the article) speaks volumes.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Please name a single dictator removed from power using banking regulations. Then explain why the banking system is used against Dictators who still have voting rights in the UN.
    - ativzzz 6y ago
      Maybe if we had better systems in place to prevent fraud and laundering, we could do better. Banking regulations are preferrable to the other means we have of removing dictators from power: war, old age, violent revolutions.
      - valuearb 6y ago
        You just said not removing dictators is preferable to removing them, since all financial regulations can be evaded by dictators. You can’t name a single dictator brought down by financial regulations. And bloody war and revolution is preferable to inaction, because every day is bloody under tyranny. Averting your eyes doesn’t stop tyrants from killing and oppressing their people.
- afurculita 6y ago
  How do you remove a dictator from power without invading that country?

hrktb 6y ago

Imagine managing a nuclear facility. One of your employee is bribed to open the valves and a whole region is flooded in nuclear waste. Would you argue that the higher up managing that facility have nothing to be blamed for, because it was just a rogue employee’s issue ? What are they even managing, if they can’t make sure to have an healthy and working organization ?

valuearb 6y ago
How often do you ride your straw horse? No one is saying management has no responsibility. It’s saying they should be judged on whether they put reasonable controls in and used reasonable efforts to ensure they are followed.
- hrktb 6y ago
  The point is on “reasonable”. We are so far away from any reasonable efforts that we’d need to put pretty drastic punishments to even have a chance to tip the balance on the “too much” side. In particular in the current situation we are talking about rampant criminal behavior, it seems weird to me to go “don’t tap too hard on their fingers, they are doing all their best, sending memos every quarter to absolutely not make money though unethical ways”
  - valuearb 6y ago
    What “rampant” criminal behavior?
    - hrktb 6y ago
      Do you currently see banks as a bastion of straightness and uncorrupted values ? We have scandals after scandals for as long as I can remember, from the pettiest levels (opening sub accounts without telling clients to meet sales figures, blacklisting bankers from the whole profession when they dare refusing to play along) to nation wide crisis inducing levels.

heavenlyblue 6y ago

Well, the CEO get’s paid life-changing money for that position, sure there should be some life-changing liability

valuearb 6y ago
Would you take a job paying $10M a year if you will spend the rest of your life in prison if a single one of your ten thousand employees commits a felony?
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  Then maybe we should check whether the existence of entities capable of paying such amounts tot the executive is a sustainable way to have a business?