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> Judge Beeler, sitting in San Francisco, noted that "while the general evidence about the threat to national security related to China (regarding technology an

> Judge Beeler, sitting in San Francisco, noted that "while the general evidence about the threat to national security related to China (regarding technology and mobile technology) is considerable, the specific evidence about WeChat is modest". I understand the presidential prerogative for national security. I also understand it’s the judges who get to check said authority. In this case it’s pretty interesting. The judge admits there is evidence, but not overwhelming so limits authority over wechat. However, we know (for a fact) China effectively forces every one of its citizens (and visitors) on wechat[1]. Honestly, the evidence is probably more solid for wechat there than other apps. Personally, I bet this wasn’t explicitly based on just evidence. Wechat is also the only way many Chinese communicate with family members back home, transfer funds, etc. I suspect it’s also the damage it’ll cause. In any case, I suspect this will be overturned as spying on communications by a foreign power IS a big security risk. Further, particularly with wechat, it seems like a way to capture communications of other people (who don’t use the app, but message people who do). [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/wechat-spying-on-foreigners/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/wechat-spying-on-foreig...

ivalm 6y ago
Is there evidence of wechat spying on communication from the US? I understand “it makes sense”, but I’ve never heard anything provable.
- onelovetwo 6y ago
  The idea is even if the data itself may not be in china, an AI model is trained using that data inside the U.S. (to predict opinion and behavior) and that is sent over. Which is essentially the same as having the data. No one actually wants the data to go though it one by one, its all to train a model that extracts meaningful things from it.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Given the fact that all data in WeChat is sent to a company in China, how would we be able to get concrete evidence of it?
  - Aperocky 6y ago
    For all we know Iraq is not allowing investigator in, how would we know if they don't have WMDs? Everyone is guilty until proven innocent.
- cbhl 6y ago
  Here are a couple of past submissions that talk about how WeChat implements moderation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20502727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20502727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20448103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20448103
- natdempk 6y ago
  WeChat is actively censored for both Chinese-registered and non-China-registered accounts, thus implying that communication through the platform is monitored, reviewed, etc. It isn't a far leap to say those capabilities are usable for spying and it seems unlikely that they wouldn't be if an opportunity arose. You can read some thorough investigations into the extent and mechanics of the censorship here: https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/ or here https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/wechat-surveillance-explained/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/wechat-surveillance-explained/
- chrischen 6y ago
  Chinese people know they are being spied on. Americans think they aren’t, and our government is still trying to maintain some pretense in that department by trying to “protect” us from mass surveillance when the trend domestically is clearly moving towards that. Given Facebook messenger isn’t encrypted and Instagram DMs are known to be filtered based on content, that means facebook effectively reads and acts on private messages. The US government is just one National Security Letter away from spying on private comms. The only real protection we have isn’t this Trump administration WeChat ban... it’s end to end encryption like in iMessage or Whatsapp.
jonathannat 6y ago
another take: > Judge Beeler, sitting in San Francisco, noted that "while the general evidence about the threat to national security related to China (regarding technology and mobile technology) is considerable, the specific evidence about WeChat is modest". A judge, in a city that is the stronghold of the party that is opposing the current administration, admits the national security threat, but thinks the threat is modest. A judge who is apparently not familiar with Chinese government threatening overseas Uighurs, https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/china-threatens-uighurs-europe/596347/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/ch... and https://thehill.com/opinion/international/501008-beyond-xinjiangs-camps-china-threatens-uighurs-globally https://thehill.com/opinion/international/501008-beyond-xinj... and overseas Chinese critics https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-wray/china-coerces-hundreds-of-chinese-born-critics-in-u-s-to-return-home-fbi-chief-says-idUSKBN24825V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-wray/china-coer.... And couldn't bother to notice the recent Chinese government's desire to control private companies https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/business/china-communist-private-business.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/business/china-communist-.... A judge who didn't bother to google before ruling on an extremely important National security issue. A judge that IMO, has overstepped her bound.
- linkjuice4all 6y ago
  While those things are bad it seems somewhat tangential to threaten to ban an app unless the company behind it has its US offices nationalized. If the national security concerns are significant you’d expect the administration to be working with the legislature to enact laws against such behavior which they could then enforce. Why wouldn’t they want this ability to go after other bad-actors instead of using this bizarre method to target this individual?
  - jonathannat 6y ago
    I think you're thinking of tiktok. This administration just wants to ban wechat outright.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  > A judge, in a city that is the stronghold of the party that is opposing the current administration [...] How is this relevant?
AsyncAwait 6y ago
The problem with this line of reasoning is that there is sufficient evidence to suggest all of Google, Facebook, Oracle, Amazon, Apple's etc. data end up with the NSA. Should Europe ban all U.S. tech companies based on that? Given the U.S. is known for "extraordinary renditions", there's reason this data will be misused.
- izacus 6y ago
  > Should Europe ban all U.S. tech companies based on that? That is the logical next step if WeChat is considered a such a danger.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    That's your first problem, assuming there is some sort of reciprocal logic at play here. It's simply about power - we ban things because we can, and we judge the blowback as being not as bad as the alternative.
- djfdat 6y ago
  The ones that care probably get that data from those companies or from the NSA anyways. However, if each country actually did try to play this game the US currently is with TikTok/WeChat/China, we’d either have no global companies, or all of our data would be shared between any company and the country that requests it.
- jonathannat 6y ago
  I don't think you understand, this is geopolitics. This is the clash of ideologies. This is democracies vs dictatorships. This is market economy vs state controlled industries. This is EU, US, Japan, Australia, Canada, UK, Taiwan, India, South Korea vs China, Russia, Turkey, Iran, North Korea. Those that say EU will side with China and go against US, don't know how geopolitics work. And haven't been paying attention to Europe standing up to China these past few weeks.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
chrischen 6y ago
The difference between Chinese people and Americans (with regards to social media and comms) is that they know they are being watched. The US government is being cute trying to “protect” Americans from being watched.

ivalm 6y ago

Is there evidence of wechat spying on communication from the US? I understand “it makes sense”, but I’ve never heard anything provable.

onelovetwo 6y ago
The idea is even if the data itself may not be in china, an AI model is trained using that data inside the U.S. (to predict opinion and behavior) and that is sent over. Which is essentially the same as having the data. No one actually wants the data to go though it one by one, its all to train a model that extracts meaningful things from it.
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Given the fact that all data in WeChat is sent to a company in China, how would we be able to get concrete evidence of it?
- Aperocky 6y ago
  For all we know Iraq is not allowing investigator in, how would we know if they don't have WMDs? Everyone is guilty until proven innocent.
cbhl 6y ago
Here are a couple of past submissions that talk about how WeChat implements moderation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20502727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20502727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20448103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20448103
natdempk 6y ago
WeChat is actively censored for both Chinese-registered and non-China-registered accounts, thus implying that communication through the platform is monitored, reviewed, etc. It isn't a far leap to say those capabilities are usable for spying and it seems unlikely that they wouldn't be if an opportunity arose. You can read some thorough investigations into the extent and mechanics of the censorship here: https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/ or here https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/wechat-surveillance-explained/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/wechat-surveillance-explained/
chrischen 6y ago
Chinese people know they are being spied on. Americans think they aren’t, and our government is still trying to maintain some pretense in that department by trying to “protect” us from mass surveillance when the trend domestically is clearly moving towards that. Given Facebook messenger isn’t encrypted and Instagram DMs are known to be filtered based on content, that means facebook effectively reads and acts on private messages. The US government is just one National Security Letter away from spying on private comms. The only real protection we have isn’t this Trump administration WeChat ban... it’s end to end encryption like in iMessage or Whatsapp.

jonathannat 6y ago

another take: > Judge Beeler, sitting in San Francisco, noted that "while the general evidence about the threat to national security related to China (regarding technology and mobile technology) is considerable, the specific evidence about WeChat is modest". A judge, in a city that is the stronghold of the party that is opposing the current administration, admits the national security threat, but thinks the threat is modest. A judge who is apparently not familiar with Chinese government threatening overseas Uighurs, https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/china-threatens-uighurs-europe/596347/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/ch... and https://thehill.com/opinion/international/501008-beyond-xinjiangs-camps-china-threatens-uighurs-globally https://thehill.com/opinion/international/501008-beyond-xinj... and overseas Chinese critics https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-wray/china-coerces-hundreds-of-chinese-born-critics-in-u-s-to-return-home-fbi-chief-says-idUSKBN24825V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-wray/china-coer.... And couldn't bother to notice the recent Chinese government's desire to control private companies https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/business/china-communist-private-business.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/business/china-communist-.... A judge who didn't bother to google before ruling on an extremely important National security issue. A judge that IMO, has overstepped her bound.

linkjuice4all 6y ago
While those things are bad it seems somewhat tangential to threaten to ban an app unless the company behind it has its US offices nationalized. If the national security concerns are significant you’d expect the administration to be working with the legislature to enact laws against such behavior which they could then enforce. Why wouldn’t they want this ability to go after other bad-actors instead of using this bizarre method to target this individual?
- jonathannat 6y ago
  I think you're thinking of tiktok. This administration just wants to ban wechat outright.
ciarannolan 6y ago
> A judge, in a city that is the stronghold of the party that is opposing the current administration [...] How is this relevant?

AsyncAwait 6y ago

The problem with this line of reasoning is that there is sufficient evidence to suggest all of Google, Facebook, Oracle, Amazon, Apple's etc. data end up with the NSA. Should Europe ban all U.S. tech companies based on that? Given the U.S. is known for "extraordinary renditions", there's reason this data will be misused.

izacus 6y ago
> Should Europe ban all U.S. tech companies based on that? That is the logical next step if WeChat is considered a such a danger.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  That's your first problem, assuming there is some sort of reciprocal logic at play here. It's simply about power - we ban things because we can, and we judge the blowback as being not as bad as the alternative.
djfdat 6y ago
The ones that care probably get that data from those companies or from the NSA anyways. However, if each country actually did try to play this game the US currently is with TikTok/WeChat/China, we’d either have no global companies, or all of our data would be shared between any company and the country that requests it.
jonathannat 6y ago
I don't think you understand, this is geopolitics. This is the clash of ideologies. This is democracies vs dictatorships. This is market economy vs state controlled industries. This is EU, US, Japan, Australia, Canada, UK, Taiwan, India, South Korea vs China, Russia, Turkey, Iran, North Korea. Those that say EU will side with China and go against US, don't know how geopolitics work. And haven't been paying attention to Europe standing up to China these past few weeks.
- Nasrudith 6y ago

chrischen 6y ago

The difference between Chinese people and Americans (with regards to social media and comms) is that they know they are being watched. The US government is being cute trying to “protect” Americans from being watched.