5 ms·

Same can be said about the victim hood mentality regarding native Americans and slavery here in the states.

ipsocannibal 6y ago
The difference is that China has been able to redress the power embalance. The decendents of slaves and indigenous Americans have not.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  China is as bad as it ever was. The people of China have not had any redress. The CCP is doing fine though.
- controversy 6y ago
  Please. At this point, both blacks and Indians are able to take various Federal and State monies to be the best they can be. The Indians have relative sovereignty. They could take their federal and casino monies and plow them into an R&D bonanza. Blacks in the US have a golden ticket to pretty much any institution they wish to attend. Both have had trillions of US dollars plowed into their communities over the year via various government spending. At this point they have redress. They have agency. They even have adulthood, much to the chagrin of the Democratic party. Blacks and Indians should be like a wiser Arab nation. They have a pool of funds. Use it to make a better world for their people. Stop keeping people on the plantation/reservation.
  - augustt 6y ago
    Yeah honestly what more could these people want - it's not like people are calling them Indians to this day or suggesting they can't think freely enough to "escape" the Democratic "plantation". Read some books not written by Candace Owens you tool.
    - zo1 6y ago
      I don't think it's constructive at all to just call someone a "tool" and suggest it's because they only consume a certain kind of literature.
    - controversy 6y ago
      I love how you dislike a black woman thinking on her own and coming to a different conclusion. You’d support her as long as she stayed on the plantation and thanked you for the provisions. As soon as she thinks contrary to you, she’s at best a maker of tools. Remember any black person having the audacity of thinking on their own is not black. https://youtu.be/We6Qr9-dDn8 https://youtu.be/We6Qr9-dDn8
    - dang 6y ago
      You can't post like this regardless of how bad another account is. It's against the site rules because it destroys the commons, which helps no one and makes nothing better. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post in the flamewar style generally, we'd be grateful.
  - ipsocannibal 6y ago
    So by your comment I think you agree with me. I'm not going to be prescriptive in how this power imbalance should be addressed as I really don't know. You seem to be of the opinion that we have as a society attempted to resolve this imbalance with wealth and government programs. However due to the unfortunate characteristics of those affected communities they have failed. Likewise, if these communities would only be like other groups of your choosing they would be much better off and societies' efforts at redress would not have been wasted. Is this correct? I think this might be relevant. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democratic-plantation-became-one-conservatives-favorite-slurs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democr...
  - chrischen 6y ago
    As you pointed out by “their people,” they clearly have a distinct cultural community. And if nepotism and inheritance, and favoritism has any effect in the preservation and continuation of wealth within cultural and racial bounds across generations, then it stands the damage done to black people can last for many generations. This is of course before even considering the hurdles and barriers actively placed upon black people by people who seem to think they must be fundamentally oppressed. Yes affirmative action is just a bandaid, but it’s necessary due to the symptoms of injustice and oppression still being present.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    My parents were in high school while segregation still existed. There's no question they got opportunities many black americans the same age did not, which absolutely had a direct and significant impact on my life. Redlining remained legal into the 70s, and was continued with the thinnest of fig leafs concealing it into the 90s. Covert discrimination in loan and rental applications continues to this day. Many studies repeated even today continue to confirm that racial discrimination in job applications remains a very real thing. Wealth is strongly generational, and we aren't even 1 generation away from dramatic and legalized inequalities. Your last paragraph is the most telling. Were black and native americans somehow not adults before today? Pools of funds? Have you ever driven through a reservation that wasn't a casino? The many underinvested urban areas that remain from the era of white flight and redlining? We see you and what you are thinking here clearly. The world is moving on from such bigotry, as should you.
    - controversy 6y ago
      You called me a bigot. I can’t respond. I’m stuck. Nowhere to go. Native Americans can invest in themselves. When they take the patrimony of the Federal government, they don’t. https://youtu.be/pQ4lnDy2xnQ https://youtu.be/pQ4lnDy2xnQ The same is true of the blacks. Before LBJ decimated them, they were on their way to be independent. They were starting to make money equal to whites. They were establishing their own cities with arts like Harlem. Then the Democrats came in offering free government money. The women just had to kick out their men to get it. They should also pursue abortions since that was empowering. Now blacks have stayed at 13% of the population for decades. They are impoverished. They believe they are victims. But I a person that won’t vote Democrat because of this and continuing evil. I am the bigot. Ok. I’ll take that title. I am a bigot for knowing that blacks can govern their own destiny without the white man from the Federal government. The same for natives.
      - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
        Wow. At least you're saying the quiet parts loud and clear now.
rektide 6y ago
Except the native americans never got their lands & resources back, & similarly blacks have never been given a chance at their own self rule. These other national examples are nation vs nation, where an outside oppressor came & then went. Missing from your anti-empathy sentiments is recognition that these peoples never were given their own sovereignty & resources to rebuild themselves. The most injurious piece may have ended but they remain bound up in the impacts all the the same.
- spacephysics 6y ago
  If I’m reading between the lines accurately (and sans sarcasm, inform me if I’m mistaken), you presuppose any individual of color (a bit of a loaded term, but you get the idea) has a debt owed to them of land and wealth separate from other people. I vaguely say “other people” because this notion is what entices racial sentiments. It’s no different than changing the adjective for a different skin tone, and saying they too deserve their “own self rule” This implies “blacks” don’t have self rule as it stands today, which I disagree with. In 2020, there exists no legislature that disfavors someone based on their skin color or ethnic background. We do however have the inverse, policies that give advantages to those who have specific skin color. This predilection for a specific kind of racism, a one-way street attitude, is what fuels our current divide. I need not say more.
  - rektide 6y ago
    Mainly just trying to call a distinction between nations & people that did get their own a chance, versus people who still had to live under other's laws & who we attempted to restore fair rights under law to. In one case, the oppressors left & sovereignty was restored. In the other case, the law decided it had to change to try to bring itself into alignment with some basic human rights & regards. I do think the people living under now-more-just law still struggle, still face discrimination, and are victim to a system that was imposed on them & a system which does not favor them. I don't think it's unreasonable to identify this gap, and this "one way street" attitude seems, to me, restorative & to be what equity & justice demands. And at times, it feels like it's still not enough, that some people- some persistent negative forces- remain fixed & focused on exclusion & discrimination & their biases, in a way that makes me think perhaps these victim-folk do deserve entirely higher levels of freedom from these oppressive forces that they still face, beyond merely our ongoing & too-controversial attempts at rebalacing.

The difference is that China has been able to redress the power embalance. The decendents of slaves and indigenous Americans have not.

pnw_hazor 6y ago
China is as bad as it ever was. The people of China have not had any redress. The CCP is doing fine though.
controversy 6y ago
Please. At this point, both blacks and Indians are able to take various Federal and State monies to be the best they can be. The Indians have relative sovereignty. They could take their federal and casino monies and plow them into an R&D bonanza. Blacks in the US have a golden ticket to pretty much any institution they wish to attend. Both have had trillions of US dollars plowed into their communities over the year via various government spending. At this point they have redress. They have agency. They even have adulthood, much to the chagrin of the Democratic party. Blacks and Indians should be like a wiser Arab nation. They have a pool of funds. Use it to make a better world for their people. Stop keeping people on the plantation/reservation.
- augustt 6y ago
  Yeah honestly what more could these people want - it's not like people are calling them Indians to this day or suggesting they can't think freely enough to "escape" the Democratic "plantation". Read some books not written by Candace Owens you tool.
  - zo1 6y ago
    I don't think it's constructive at all to just call someone a "tool" and suggest it's because they only consume a certain kind of literature.
  - controversy 6y ago
    I love how you dislike a black woman thinking on her own and coming to a different conclusion. You’d support her as long as she stayed on the plantation and thanked you for the provisions. As soon as she thinks contrary to you, she’s at best a maker of tools. Remember any black person having the audacity of thinking on their own is not black. https://youtu.be/We6Qr9-dDn8 https://youtu.be/We6Qr9-dDn8
  - dang 6y ago
    You can't post like this regardless of how bad another account is. It's against the site rules because it destroys the commons, which helps no one and makes nothing better. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post in the flamewar style generally, we'd be grateful.
- ipsocannibal 6y ago
  So by your comment I think you agree with me. I'm not going to be prescriptive in how this power imbalance should be addressed as I really don't know. You seem to be of the opinion that we have as a society attempted to resolve this imbalance with wealth and government programs. However due to the unfortunate characteristics of those affected communities they have failed. Likewise, if these communities would only be like other groups of your choosing they would be much better off and societies' efforts at redress would not have been wasted. Is this correct? I think this might be relevant. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democratic-plantation-became-one-conservatives-favorite-slurs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/how-democr...
- chrischen 6y ago
  As you pointed out by “their people,” they clearly have a distinct cultural community. And if nepotism and inheritance, and favoritism has any effect in the preservation and continuation of wealth within cultural and racial bounds across generations, then it stands the damage done to black people can last for many generations. This is of course before even considering the hurdles and barriers actively placed upon black people by people who seem to think they must be fundamentally oppressed. Yes affirmative action is just a bandaid, but it’s necessary due to the symptoms of injustice and oppression still being present.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  My parents were in high school while segregation still existed. There's no question they got opportunities many black americans the same age did not, which absolutely had a direct and significant impact on my life. Redlining remained legal into the 70s, and was continued with the thinnest of fig leafs concealing it into the 90s. Covert discrimination in loan and rental applications continues to this day. Many studies repeated even today continue to confirm that racial discrimination in job applications remains a very real thing. Wealth is strongly generational, and we aren't even 1 generation away from dramatic and legalized inequalities. Your last paragraph is the most telling. Were black and native americans somehow not adults before today? Pools of funds? Have you ever driven through a reservation that wasn't a casino? The many underinvested urban areas that remain from the era of white flight and redlining? We see you and what you are thinking here clearly. The world is moving on from such bigotry, as should you.
  - controversy 6y ago
    You called me a bigot. I can’t respond. I’m stuck. Nowhere to go. Native Americans can invest in themselves. When they take the patrimony of the Federal government, they don’t. https://youtu.be/pQ4lnDy2xnQ https://youtu.be/pQ4lnDy2xnQ The same is true of the blacks. Before LBJ decimated them, they were on their way to be independent. They were starting to make money equal to whites. They were establishing their own cities with arts like Harlem. Then the Democrats came in offering free government money. The women just had to kick out their men to get it. They should also pursue abortions since that was empowering. Now blacks have stayed at 13% of the population for decades. They are impoverished. They believe they are victims. But I a person that won’t vote Democrat because of this and continuing evil. I am the bigot. Ok. I’ll take that title. I am a bigot for knowing that blacks can govern their own destiny without the white man from the Federal government. The same for natives.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      Wow. At least you're saying the quiet parts loud and clear now.

rektide 6y ago

Except the native americans never got their lands & resources back, & similarly blacks have never been given a chance at their own self rule. These other national examples are nation vs nation, where an outside oppressor came & then went. Missing from your anti-empathy sentiments is recognition that these peoples never were given their own sovereignty & resources to rebuild themselves. The most injurious piece may have ended but they remain bound up in the impacts all the the same.

spacephysics 6y ago
If I’m reading between the lines accurately (and sans sarcasm, inform me if I’m mistaken), you presuppose any individual of color (a bit of a loaded term, but you get the idea) has a debt owed to them of land and wealth separate from other people. I vaguely say “other people” because this notion is what entices racial sentiments. It’s no different than changing the adjective for a different skin tone, and saying they too deserve their “own self rule” This implies “blacks” don’t have self rule as it stands today, which I disagree with. In 2020, there exists no legislature that disfavors someone based on their skin color or ethnic background. We do however have the inverse, policies that give advantages to those who have specific skin color. This predilection for a specific kind of racism, a one-way street attitude, is what fuels our current divide. I need not say more.
- rektide 6y ago
  Mainly just trying to call a distinction between nations & people that did get their own a chance, versus people who still had to live under other's laws & who we attempted to restore fair rights under law to. In one case, the oppressors left & sovereignty was restored. In the other case, the law decided it had to change to try to bring itself into alignment with some basic human rights & regards. I do think the people living under now-more-just law still struggle, still face discrimination, and are victim to a system that was imposed on them & a system which does not favor them. I don't think it's unreasonable to identify this gap, and this "one way street" attitude seems, to me, restorative & to be what equity & justice demands. And at times, it feels like it's still not enough, that some people- some persistent negative forces- remain fixed & focused on exclusion & discrimination & their biases, in a way that makes me think perhaps these victim-folk do deserve entirely higher levels of freedom from these oppressive forces that they still face, beyond merely our ongoing & too-controversial attempts at rebalacing.