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The real problem I see here is the default assumption from many people that these is racial bias in the algorithm with no evidence thereof whatsoever. Thats how

by noxer 6y ago

The real problem I see here is the default assumption from many people that these is racial bias in the algorithm with no evidence thereof whatsoever. Thats how twitter works, shitstorm first, research later, evidence or corrections for false assumptions - never.

matthewmacleod 6y ago
I mean “no evidence whatsoever” is a pretty big stretch. There’s the initial example, a bunch of other examples of the same effect posted in the thread, and it’s already a really well-known and obvious effect that we have seen occur many times before.
- noxer 6y ago
  That called "anecdotal" not an evidence.
  - odonnellryan 6y ago
    Anecdotal evidence is still evidence. These are not anecdotes however, but probably not very significant.
    - noxer 6y ago
      lok what. "Anecdotal evidence" specifically described a false evidence. Just because "evidence" is part of the term doesn't mean it a valid evidence.
      - 411111111111111 6y ago
        That's incorrect. Anecdotes aren't necessarily wrong/incorrect. They're just Stories which may or may not be coincidences, falsehoods or representative of the reality. An anecdote is just a single data point, so no conclusion can be drawn from it alone Its true that it's often used to discredit someone, often even in bad faith... But that doesn't mean that it's inherintly derogatory
        noxer 6y ago
        I never said the anecdotal evidence is "wrong" I said its a "false evidence" the conclusion can still be correct. The evidence remains false/not valid if it is anecdotal.
        odonnellryan 6y ago
        Anecdotal evidence is not false evidence. Evidence based on individual experiences or observations is not "false" but it can be subjective and misleading. It is still used all the time in law.
svrb 6y ago
It's also how HN works. In a comment far below there's a link to a decent controlled experiment completely debunking this claim (outcome using controlled dataset: 40 white to 52 black faces chosen). But that comment is heavily downvoted. https://twitter.com/vinayprabhu/status/1307497736191635458?s=19 https://twitter.com/vinayprabhu/status/1307497736191635458?s...
- noxer 6y ago
  People want it to be true. Instead they should want to know if its true.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    People want to be able to believe in a truth they are told rather than have to have the responsibility of observing their own at all times. People have been wired so strongly for this that they will even downvote you when you remind them of it :)
  - svrb 6y ago
    > People want it to be true. This is the really disturbing thing. Why would someone want Twitter to have race-based image cropping? And yet the behavior of many in the various threads is precisely as if they did! I think it may actually make them happier if it's true. Who are the real racists, again? It's hard to tell sometimes. And after all, doesn't the Twitter OP acknowledge this inevitable result when calling it a "horrible" experiment?
    - noxer 6y ago
      >Why would someone want Twitter to have race-based image cropping? -Victim mentality -Virtue signaling -Having a "proof" for a common enemy (twitter, social media , big evil corp etc. etc.)
- acqq 6y ago
  > (outcome using controlled dataset: 40 white to 52 black faces chosen). But that comment is heavily downvoted. Maybe because 1) If that's the comment you refer to, it also contains the claim "Misleading - it seems to be looking for contrast" which as far as I see isn't provably true? 2) in the end tweet of the experiment it's claimed: "I've created @cropping_bias to run the complete the experiment. Waiting for @Twitter to approve Dev credentials" and the https://twitter.com/cropping_bias https://twitter.com/cropping_bias is still empty at the moment? Edit: personally, the interesting experiments for me are like "a person against a drawing" -- the simpler the competition is the bigger the chance to figure out what the "preference" could be: https://mobile.twitter.com/griffonatrix/status/1307463528337547266 https://mobile.twitter.com/griffonatrix/status/1307463528337... (Luckily, I don't depend on Twitter, but I'd suggest that those who do should have the chance to do the "manual override.")

by noxer 6y ago

matthewmacleod 6y ago

I mean “no evidence whatsoever” is a pretty big stretch. There’s the initial example, a bunch of other examples of the same effect posted in the thread, and it’s already a really well-known and obvious effect that we have seen occur many times before.

noxer 6y ago
That called "anecdotal" not an evidence.
- odonnellryan 6y ago
  Anecdotal evidence is still evidence. These are not anecdotes however, but probably not very significant.
  - noxer 6y ago
    lok what. "Anecdotal evidence" specifically described a false evidence. Just because "evidence" is part of the term doesn't mean it a valid evidence.
    - 411111111111111 6y ago
      That's incorrect. Anecdotes aren't necessarily wrong/incorrect. They're just Stories which may or may not be coincidences, falsehoods or representative of the reality. An anecdote is just a single data point, so no conclusion can be drawn from it alone Its true that it's often used to discredit someone, often even in bad faith... But that doesn't mean that it's inherintly derogatory
      - noxer 6y ago
        I never said the anecdotal evidence is "wrong" I said its a "false evidence" the conclusion can still be correct. The evidence remains false/not valid if it is anecdotal.
        odonnellryan 6y ago
        Anecdotal evidence is not false evidence. Evidence based on individual experiences or observations is not "false" but it can be subjective and misleading. It is still used all the time in law.

svrb 6y ago

It's also how HN works. In a comment far below there's a link to a decent controlled experiment completely debunking this claim (outcome using controlled dataset: 40 white to 52 black faces chosen). But that comment is heavily downvoted. https://twitter.com/vinayprabhu/status/1307497736191635458?s=19 https://twitter.com/vinayprabhu/status/1307497736191635458?s...

noxer 6y ago
People want it to be true. Instead they should want to know if its true.
- Lammy 6y ago
  People want to be able to believe in a truth they are told rather than have to have the responsibility of observing their own at all times. People have been wired so strongly for this that they will even downvote you when you remind them of it :)
- svrb 6y ago
  > People want it to be true. This is the really disturbing thing. Why would someone want Twitter to have race-based image cropping? And yet the behavior of many in the various threads is precisely as if they did! I think it may actually make them happier if it's true. Who are the real racists, again? It's hard to tell sometimes. And after all, doesn't the Twitter OP acknowledge this inevitable result when calling it a "horrible" experiment?
  - noxer 6y ago
    >Why would someone want Twitter to have race-based image cropping? -Victim mentality -Virtue signaling -Having a "proof" for a common enemy (twitter, social media , big evil corp etc. etc.)
acqq 6y ago
> (outcome using controlled dataset: 40 white to 52 black faces chosen). But that comment is heavily downvoted. Maybe because 1) If that's the comment you refer to, it also contains the claim "Misleading - it seems to be looking for contrast" which as far as I see isn't provably true? 2) in the end tweet of the experiment it's claimed: "I've created @cropping_bias to run the complete the experiment. Waiting for @Twitter to approve Dev credentials" and the https://twitter.com/cropping_bias https://twitter.com/cropping_bias is still empty at the moment? Edit: personally, the interesting experiments for me are like "a person against a drawing" -- the simpler the competition is the bigger the chance to figure out what the "preference" could be: https://mobile.twitter.com/griffonatrix/status/1307463528337547266 https://mobile.twitter.com/griffonatrix/status/1307463528337... (Luckily, I don't depend on Twitter, but I'd suggest that those who do should have the chance to do the "manual override.")