6 ms·

> Prohibition doesn't work for meth or heroin either. Making them freely available under doctor supervision is what works. Those things can be mutually exclusi

by umvi 6y ago

> Prohibition doesn't work for meth or heroin either. Making them freely available under doctor supervision is what works. Those things can be mutually exclusive though. For example, you could make it so meth/heroin isn't readily available at the local pharmacy/gas station, yet also make it freely available under doctor supervision at rehab centers. I think many people (myself included) are apprehensive about making drugs totally legal because many law abiding citizens who otherwise would have never touched the drug may whimsically decide to try it at a rough patch in their life just by seeing it on the shelf at the gas station. I am more in favor of decriminalization, but if legalization really is the most effective solution I would like to see advertising completely banned, behind-the-counter only, generic labels only, etc.

mlrtime 6y ago
It difficult to even start talking about decriminalizing all drugs because it immediately turns into hypothetical situations about "buy heroin at 7-11 across from a school". Nobody is advocating that position, no need to bring it up.
tchaffee 6y ago
> many people (myself included) are apprehensive Well yes, a lot of the discussion is around fear of what might happen. Why isn't anyone afraid of what already is happening? Illegal recreational drugs are literally a greater than $ billion dollar a year business in the US alone. I could understand this position if recreational drugs were somewhat uncommon and the fear was that legalizing them would make them more widespread. They are widespread already. Anyone who wants recreational drugs in the US can easily get them. > many law abiding citizens who otherwise would have never touched the drug may whimsically decide to try it at a rough patch in their life just by seeing it on the shelf at the gas station They already do. Anyone can try alcohol to get over a rough patch in life. I think a lot of people would be shocked just how low addiction rates are for addictive drugs. Even a drug like heroin that can cause physical dependence, has an addiction rate of about 12%. Let's turn that around. A full 88% of people who try heroin never get addicted. Plenty of people even become physically dependent on opiates like heroin but never become addicted. Think pain treatment and then the thing causing the pain goes away. People successfully withdraw from the physical dependence because they don't have an addiction problem. > I would like to see advertising completely banned, behind-the-counter only, generic labels only I don't find that unreasonable. Interesting how that contrasts to the constant advertising on TV in the USA for prescription drugs.
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  This. Whatever we are doing now definitley does not work; drugs are destroying millions of peoples lives already, and also contributing to lots of violence caused by the black market drug trade. We've been trying "that, but MORE of it" for a few decades, and the problems caused by drugs have gotten WORSE. So, how about something different?
  - mlyle 6y ago
    umvi doesn't oppose something different, above, but says there the most optimal approach may be between either of the extremes (outright prohibition vs. completely unregulated, buying off the shelf at a gas station). So if you're going to argue with him, please be sure to refute something he actually advocates for.
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      Well, then umvi made the same mistake you're warning about, as the person they replied to wasn't advocating for completely unregulated gas-station drugs but rather "Making them freely available under doctor supervision." They didn't even respond to the parent.
- rch 6y ago
  I think it makes sense to decriminalize at the federal level and leave it to states to determine the appropriate level of local regulation. Banning corporatization, advertising, and branding of these substances is an intriguing idea, and probably necessary to make progress in this country.
luckylion 6y ago
> because many law abiding citizens who otherwise would have never touched the drug may whimsically decide to try it They likely wouldn't. Most drugs aren't socially accepted, the gas station wouldn't stock them (and that's usually not what people ask for when they talk about legalization). Consider LSD. It's illegal, heavily so. But there's 1P-LSD, it's a "research chemical" and very similar to LSD. It has been legal for a few years (and still is in many countries) and has only been made a controlled substance in parts of Europe last year. If illegality was what kept people away from drugs, you'd expect to have seen a lot of normal people tripping in the last year. But you haven't (okay, maybe you have, it would explain a lot of things, wouldn't it?), and it was really only used as an easily obtainable and legal alternative to LSD by people who want an LSD-like drug because they know LSD.
- umvi 6y ago
  > They likely wouldn't. Most drugs aren't socially accepted, the gas station wouldn't stock them I don't know, I'm still not convinced. I think legalization is an important step on the path to social acceptance. Examples: Marijuana, abortion, gay marriage These things used to be socially unacceptable and illegal, but they are now socially acceptable and legal Some drugs might not be socially acceptable right now, but I would argue legalizing them would help them become more socially acceptable. I admit that legalization may only be partially causal though (i.e. social acceptance was mounting before legalization). And convenience stores would certainly stock drugs if there was demand and they were allowed to.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > Examples: Marijuana, abortion, gay marriage > These things used to be socially unacceptable and illegal, but they are now socially acceptable and legal And you don't get Marijuana or an abortion at the gas station. But you might be able to get gay married at a gas station in Vegas ;) I don't think they're anywhere close to socially acceptable yet, outside of young and very progressive people. You're not going to talk to your manager at a bank about getting an abortion or smoking weed, but you can absolutely talk to them about smoking cigars or some new whisky. They're less ostracized, I'd say, but I see your point. I'm not sure it's legality and availability changes frequency. Abortions aren't becoming more common, they peaked in the 80ies (in the US) and have been falling since. I don't know the current numbers, but a few years ago they recorded the lowest numbers since they started recording them in the early 70ies. > And convenience stores would certainly stock drugs if there was demand and they were allowed to. If they were socially accepted at the level of Alcohol, maybe, but that'll take decades if not centuries. There's a demand for sex toys, and they're legal, but convenience stores don't usually have them stocked. It's changing, but very slowly, because society is much more socially conservative than Hollywood and media companies reflect back, and most people don't want dildos and life-size sex dolls presented where they shop with their children. I believe the same is true for drugs. Also, there's no reason why they wouldn't be sold in special stores, and that's a big plus for legalization: you can regulate what is legal. You can put age restrictions on what's legal. And, from a state perspective: you can tax what's legal.

by umvi 6y ago

mlrtime 6y ago

It difficult to even start talking about decriminalizing all drugs because it immediately turns into hypothetical situations about "buy heroin at 7-11 across from a school". Nobody is advocating that position, no need to bring it up.

tchaffee 6y ago

> many people (myself included) are apprehensive Well yes, a lot of the discussion is around fear of what might happen. Why isn't anyone afraid of what already is happening? Illegal recreational drugs are literally a greater than $ billion dollar a year business in the US alone. I could understand this position if recreational drugs were somewhat uncommon and the fear was that legalizing them would make them more widespread. They are widespread already. Anyone who wants recreational drugs in the US can easily get them. > many law abiding citizens who otherwise would have never touched the drug may whimsically decide to try it at a rough patch in their life just by seeing it on the shelf at the gas station They already do. Anyone can try alcohol to get over a rough patch in life. I think a lot of people would be shocked just how low addiction rates are for addictive drugs. Even a drug like heroin that can cause physical dependence, has an addiction rate of about 12%. Let's turn that around. A full 88% of people who try heroin never get addicted. Plenty of people even become physically dependent on opiates like heroin but never become addicted. Think pain treatment and then the thing causing the pain goes away. People successfully withdraw from the physical dependence because they don't have an addiction problem. > I would like to see advertising completely banned, behind-the-counter only, generic labels only I don't find that unreasonable. Interesting how that contrasts to the constant advertising on TV in the USA for prescription drugs.

jrochkind1 6y ago
This. Whatever we are doing now definitley does not work; drugs are destroying millions of peoples lives already, and also contributing to lots of violence caused by the black market drug trade. We've been trying "that, but MORE of it" for a few decades, and the problems caused by drugs have gotten WORSE. So, how about something different?
- mlyle 6y ago
  umvi doesn't oppose something different, above, but says there the most optimal approach may be between either of the extremes (outright prohibition vs. completely unregulated, buying off the shelf at a gas station). So if you're going to argue with him, please be sure to refute something he actually advocates for.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    Well, then umvi made the same mistake you're warning about, as the person they replied to wasn't advocating for completely unregulated gas-station drugs but rather "Making them freely available under doctor supervision." They didn't even respond to the parent.
rch 6y ago
I think it makes sense to decriminalize at the federal level and leave it to states to determine the appropriate level of local regulation. Banning corporatization, advertising, and branding of these substances is an intriguing idea, and probably necessary to make progress in this country.

luckylion 6y ago

> because many law abiding citizens who otherwise would have never touched the drug may whimsically decide to try it They likely wouldn't. Most drugs aren't socially accepted, the gas station wouldn't stock them (and that's usually not what people ask for when they talk about legalization). Consider LSD. It's illegal, heavily so. But there's 1P-LSD, it's a "research chemical" and very similar to LSD. It has been legal for a few years (and still is in many countries) and has only been made a controlled substance in parts of Europe last year. If illegality was what kept people away from drugs, you'd expect to have seen a lot of normal people tripping in the last year. But you haven't (okay, maybe you have, it would explain a lot of things, wouldn't it?), and it was really only used as an easily obtainable and legal alternative to LSD by people who want an LSD-like drug because they know LSD.

umvi 6y ago
> They likely wouldn't. Most drugs aren't socially accepted, the gas station wouldn't stock them I don't know, I'm still not convinced. I think legalization is an important step on the path to social acceptance. Examples: Marijuana, abortion, gay marriage These things used to be socially unacceptable and illegal, but they are now socially acceptable and legal Some drugs might not be socially acceptable right now, but I would argue legalizing them would help them become more socially acceptable. I admit that legalization may only be partially causal though (i.e. social acceptance was mounting before legalization). And convenience stores would certainly stock drugs if there was demand and they were allowed to.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Examples: Marijuana, abortion, gay marriage > These things used to be socially unacceptable and illegal, but they are now socially acceptable and legal And you don't get Marijuana or an abortion at the gas station. But you might be able to get gay married at a gas station in Vegas ;) I don't think they're anywhere close to socially acceptable yet, outside of young and very progressive people. You're not going to talk to your manager at a bank about getting an abortion or smoking weed, but you can absolutely talk to them about smoking cigars or some new whisky. They're less ostracized, I'd say, but I see your point. I'm not sure it's legality and availability changes frequency. Abortions aren't becoming more common, they peaked in the 80ies (in the US) and have been falling since. I don't know the current numbers, but a few years ago they recorded the lowest numbers since they started recording them in the early 70ies. > And convenience stores would certainly stock drugs if there was demand and they were allowed to. If they were socially accepted at the level of Alcohol, maybe, but that'll take decades if not centuries. There's a demand for sex toys, and they're legal, but convenience stores don't usually have them stocked. It's changing, but very slowly, because society is much more socially conservative than Hollywood and media companies reflect back, and most people don't want dildos and life-size sex dolls presented where they shop with their children. I believe the same is true for drugs. Also, there's no reason why they wouldn't be sold in special stores, and that's a big plus for legalization: you can regulate what is legal. You can put age restrictions on what's legal. And, from a state perspective: you can tax what's legal.