4 ms·

No. We live in a society. If I'm expected to help pick up the pieces when you self-destruct, it's absolutely my business.

by dTal 6y ago

derbOac 6y ago
Except that criminalization doesn't help anyone pick up the pieces, at least as criminalization goes in the us today. There's also lots of ways to self destruct that aren't criminalized.
- dTal 6y ago
  You are arguing against a position I did not take. My sole point is that hyper-permissive individualistic libertarianism is inappropriate in a cohesive society. Your health, your success, even your happiness; all affect me. We all depend on each other. As such, it's simply not correct to say "it's my business what I put in my body". "No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Sugar, alcohol, and sitting have cost society more than meth, yet no one is going to go around policing people for those vices. Education and positive incentives are the better solution.
syspec 6y ago
You're doing that right now, with your tax dollars. It cost $81,203 _per year_ to house just one inmate in California[0]. I understand punishing sellers, but I think the punishments for drug charges (and most charges in the US), are so draconian. 1 Year in prison for this guy should be enough. From what I've heard, prison is terrible, people do not want to spend 1 day in prison. There is absolutely nothing he will learn in year 3, or year 4, or year 5, that will make him a better person when he comes out. "Tough on crime" and "war on drugs" are just two huge mistakes we have made that we cannot retract, because it is politically unpopular to do so. [0] https://lao.ca.gov/policyareas/cj/6_cj_inmatecost https://lao.ca.gov/policyareas/cj/6_cj_inmatecost
- dTal 6y ago
  The dysfunctionality of the American penal system, as well as the propensity to treat it like a hammer for every problem's nail, warrants an entirely separate discussion. Hopefully there's a satisfactory middle ground between "locked up in harsh conditions for years" and "ain't nobody's business if you do".
- nip180 6y ago
  It’s literally all about that $81k at this point. More time in prison, more people in prison, more lobbying dollars to encourage the use of the prison system. We have 2.5 million people in jail/prison.
tchaffee 6y ago
Then so is your diet and exercise regime my business. I also want to control who you spend time with (for your mental health) and what you consume for entertainment - there will be limits on what you can read and watch and how much. Alcohol is of course no longer ever an option, and many injury prone sports are also forbidden. At any point we predict you might commit a crime, we will jail you first to reduce the cost to society.
- johnwheeler 6y ago
  Slippery slope fallacy
- dTal 6y ago
  Thank you for at least engaging with what I actually said. Obviously, you must balance the harm of the intervention itself with the harm that the intervention is trying to mitigate. In fact many of your measures are already in place. Civilized society does control your diet, through food regulation. It controls what you watch to some extent - you'll have to go a bit out of your way to find sex and violence. Alcohol is indeed a restricted substance, and many injury-prone sports have been discontinued or modified to be safer, although some (like boxing) continue despite solid evidence of terrible cumulative injury - to great controversy. I'm not sure what you're going for with the pre-crime thing... There's no need to equate "my business" with "draconian control".
  - lambdaba 6y ago
    Sugar costs way more in health consequences. It's easier to recover from abuse from most drugs than sugar, which is a slow poison, yet available everywhere and given to us since early childhood (actually, in the womb).
    - nip180 6y ago
      That’s absurd and incorrect. It’s significantly safer to expose an unborn child to sugar than alcohol, cocaine, meth, or heroin.
jokethrowaway 6y ago
There's a simple solution, don't socialise safety nets and let people pay for their mistakes or misfortunes. It may sound cold but at least you don't have to steal money from all the people who actually create value and you don't have to pay for bureaucracy
- dTal 6y ago
  Bob runs a small but successful company that produces a niche variety of widget for manufacturing sector X. Bob likes a cigarette! He applies his personal agency and smokes several packs a day. He says they help him focus. One day, in his forties, Bob is diagnosed with emphysema and learns he doesn't have long to live. In between crossing items off his bucket list, he tries to find a way to keep his company going; but no one else understands this niche like Bob does. Bob dies and the company goes under. A few of his customers can't find alternate suppliers and go under as well. Some products cease to exist; others become more expensive. A huge loss to the market. We all pay for others' mistakes and misfortunes.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  > steal money from all the people who actually create value When someone creates hundreds of millions of dollars in pollution and they have far less in the bank or in profits, who pays for the cleanup costs? You will. Your "simple solution" only fixes small cases of mistakes or misfortune, the easily affordable ones. And while you might be happy living in a society where you watch someone die on the sidewalk because they should "pay for their mistakes or misfortunes" I think the vast majority of us don't want anything to do with that kind of society. We aren't here to serve the economy, it's here to serve us.
redisman 6y ago
Ok. One word: Obesity. What do?

No. We live in a society. If I'm expected to help pick up the pieces when you self-destruct, it's absolutely my business.

by dTal 6y ago

No. We live in a society. If I'm expected to help pick up the pieces when you self-destruct, it's absolutely my business.

derbOac 6y ago

Except that criminalization doesn't help anyone pick up the pieces, at least as criminalization goes in the us today. There's also lots of ways to self destruct that aren't criminalized.

dTal 6y ago
You are arguing against a position I did not take. My sole point is that hyper-permissive individualistic libertarianism is inappropriate in a cohesive society. Your health, your success, even your happiness; all affect me. We all depend on each other. As such, it's simply not correct to say "it's my business what I put in my body". "No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Sugar, alcohol, and sitting have cost society more than meth, yet no one is going to go around policing people for those vices. Education and positive incentives are the better solution.

syspec 6y ago

You're doing that right now, with your tax dollars. It cost $81,203 _per year_ to house just one inmate in California[0]. I understand punishing sellers, but I think the punishments for drug charges (and most charges in the US), are so draconian. 1 Year in prison for this guy should be enough. From what I've heard, prison is terrible, people do not want to spend 1 day in prison. There is absolutely nothing he will learn in year 3, or year 4, or year 5, that will make him a better person when he comes out. "Tough on crime" and "war on drugs" are just two huge mistakes we have made that we cannot retract, because it is politically unpopular to do so. [0] https://lao.ca.gov/policyareas/cj/6_cj_inmatecost https://lao.ca.gov/policyareas/cj/6_cj_inmatecost

dTal 6y ago
The dysfunctionality of the American penal system, as well as the propensity to treat it like a hammer for every problem's nail, warrants an entirely separate discussion. Hopefully there's a satisfactory middle ground between "locked up in harsh conditions for years" and "ain't nobody's business if you do".
nip180 6y ago
It’s literally all about that $81k at this point. More time in prison, more people in prison, more lobbying dollars to encourage the use of the prison system. We have 2.5 million people in jail/prison.

tchaffee 6y ago

Then so is your diet and exercise regime my business. I also want to control who you spend time with (for your mental health) and what you consume for entertainment - there will be limits on what you can read and watch and how much. Alcohol is of course no longer ever an option, and many injury prone sports are also forbidden. At any point we predict you might commit a crime, we will jail you first to reduce the cost to society.

johnwheeler 6y ago
Slippery slope fallacy
dTal 6y ago
Thank you for at least engaging with what I actually said. Obviously, you must balance the harm of the intervention itself with the harm that the intervention is trying to mitigate. In fact many of your measures are already in place. Civilized society does control your diet, through food regulation. It controls what you watch to some extent - you'll have to go a bit out of your way to find sex and violence. Alcohol is indeed a restricted substance, and many injury-prone sports have been discontinued or modified to be safer, although some (like boxing) continue despite solid evidence of terrible cumulative injury - to great controversy. I'm not sure what you're going for with the pre-crime thing... There's no need to equate "my business" with "draconian control".
- lambdaba 6y ago
  Sugar costs way more in health consequences. It's easier to recover from abuse from most drugs than sugar, which is a slow poison, yet available everywhere and given to us since early childhood (actually, in the womb).
  - nip180 6y ago
    That’s absurd and incorrect. It’s significantly safer to expose an unborn child to sugar than alcohol, cocaine, meth, or heroin.

jokethrowaway 6y ago

There's a simple solution, don't socialise safety nets and let people pay for their mistakes or misfortunes. It may sound cold but at least you don't have to steal money from all the people who actually create value and you don't have to pay for bureaucracy

dTal 6y ago
Bob runs a small but successful company that produces a niche variety of widget for manufacturing sector X. Bob likes a cigarette! He applies his personal agency and smokes several packs a day. He says they help him focus. One day, in his forties, Bob is diagnosed with emphysema and learns he doesn't have long to live. In between crossing items off his bucket list, he tries to find a way to keep his company going; but no one else understands this niche like Bob does. Bob dies and the company goes under. A few of his customers can't find alternate suppliers and go under as well. Some products cease to exist; others become more expensive. A huge loss to the market. We all pay for others' mistakes and misfortunes.
tchaffee 6y ago
> steal money from all the people who actually create value When someone creates hundreds of millions of dollars in pollution and they have far less in the bank or in profits, who pays for the cleanup costs? You will. Your "simple solution" only fixes small cases of mistakes or misfortune, the easily affordable ones. And while you might be happy living in a society where you watch someone die on the sidewalk because they should "pay for their mistakes or misfortunes" I think the vast majority of us don't want anything to do with that kind of society. We aren't here to serve the economy, it's here to serve us.

redisman 6y ago

Ok. One word: Obesity. What do?