5 ms·

I'm sad I can't find my favorite comment, and have actually searched for it on multiple occasions. It wasn't a good comment, it was a bad comment — I am only s

by veidr 6y ago

I'm sad I can't find my favorite comment, and have actually searched for it on multiple occasions. It wasn't a good comment, it was a bad comment — I am only sharing it on the off chance that somebody else will remember and post the link. The discussion had veered to bicycle helmets: should they be required, is there innovation to be realized in their design, something like that. Somebody posted some comment about definitely wanting people to have a helmet when they crash their bike and hit their head on the curb, and some other person became incensed at their evidence-free assertion that wearing a helmet would be helpful when crashing one's bike and having one's head hit the curb. The incensed party demanded links to scientifically rigorous studies, rather than some layperson's hunch, that helmet wearing would be beneficial in this particular circumstance. I laughed out loud when I read it, because it so pithily and absurdly epitomized what is often _wrong_ with this website.

rolfvandekrol 6y ago
Probably Dutch. We usually get very agitated when someone tells us we should wear bike helmets.
- ycombinete 6y ago
  You should though
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Have you ever been in NL?
  - superice 6y ago
    There is ~250 cycling related traffic deaths per year in the Netherlands. Some 60 of those are e-bike related. Normalized per capita that is well above the EU average, but you shouldn't forget that we cycle a lot in the Netherlands, which means that per cycled kilometer, cycling in the Netherlands is still ridiculously safe even without helmets. It has been argued that forcing people to wear a helmet in law will reduce trips taken by bicycle and increase air pollution due to an increased number of trips taken by car (25% of ALL trips in NL are taken by bicycle, versus about 16% in Denmark, to give some comparison). And this is not even counting the psychological effect it has on car drivers and their behavior around people wearing helmets. Besides: cycling injuries and deaths are skewed heavily towards the elderly population (65+), if you're a 20-something person, statistically speaking you're more than fine not wearing a helmet in the Netherlands. Let's not jump to conclusions here about helmets and think this stuff through before shouting 'You should wear a helmet'. It's not quite that black and white. Forcing everybody to wear helmets might very well cause more death and injury than not to. We have taken other precautions to ensure cyclist safety, such as designing our roads to protect them, and those measures make a lot more sense. You shouldn't forget that a helmet only helps a little if you are already in a bad situation (e.g. an accident), so it's much better to prevent that situation from occuring in the first place. The Youtube-channel Not Just Bikes has great explanations about how we approach those problems over here.
    - kqr 6y ago
      Head injuries are more common in cars than bicycles. Before someone tells me I "must" wear a helmet when cycling, I want to see them strap on a helmet when entering a car.
      - Natsu 6y ago
        That's what airbags are for in a car.
      - spacedcowboy 6y ago
        I’ve been hit by a car three times when cycling (only when cycling on an e-bike, car-drivers seem to have difficulty assessing the different speeds involved). The last time, and the time that persuaded me to give up the e-bike resulted in [this](https://0x0000ff.uk/imgs/hit-by-car.png https://0x0000ff.uk/imgs/hit-by-car.png). That top impact is my head, smashing the windscreen. The lower impact is my arm (broken in two places). The side of the car was my knee, breaking the my thigh in the process. I was cycling along, in my cycle lane, with the right of way on a main road. A woman turning left across my path into a side road either didn’t look or didn’t see me. I had time for “Oh Shi” before the impact and the pain. I was wearing a cycle helmet, actually one issued by my work, which is what saved my life that day. The ER nurse said a young woman had also been admitted because of a car accident that evening, but she’d only been wearing a climbing helmet. She died. My body was broken, but I didn’t even get a bruise on my head. I remain a fan of cycle helmets.
        kqr 6y ago
        That sounds like an awful experience. From the picture, it looks like the crumple zones on the car yielded very kindly to your momentum as well, which is incredibly fortunate. I'm glad you got out of it alive, if with some serious scratches and dings. I'm convinced anyone who would be wearing a helmet when driving a car, and narrowly escaping death in a similar way (e.g. a racing driver who is kept alive by their helmet?) would argue much the same way in favour of helmets when driving cars. It's just more rare because we don't wear helmets when driving cars. What do you think of that line of reasoning?
  - dang 6y ago
    Could you please not post unsubstantive comments here?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jtwaleson 6y ago
  Dutch feelings about bike helmets are close to American feelings about the second amendment.
blululu 6y ago
FWIW I usually do appreciate citations/links to scientific research. Online discussions can devolve quickly and a culture that demands quality information to back up statements is more resilient to a lot of common issues with online discussions. Even if the result seems obvious, there can be a lot of interesting material in the primary source.
nicbou 6y ago
Maybe it's not such a bad thing. Sometimes the numbers make a very convincing case. Take motorcycle helmets. In over 40% of motorcycle accidents, you hit the chin bar, or what's under it. It's an undeniable argument in favour of a full face helmet.
johnchristopher 6y ago
Wait, could that be me ? I had that exact conversation on HN. I was the one asking for studies (and my previous comment was sthg like "helmets should be mandatory" then I was told "do you realize it increases injuries ?" then I ask for proof) and the reasoning in the studies was that making helmets mandatory decreased car drivers' attention to cyclists making them less cautious around them, resulting in more serious injuries. Strangely neither can I find those comments at the time. I have the fuzzy memory that it was about a bikes around Sydney or Australia but HN comments tend to derail from the initial submission so I can't be sure. edit: found it ! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262081
- nicbou 6y ago
  It might be increasing injuries the same way helmets did when they were introduced during the first world war. All those head injuries would have been fatalities. Instead their wearers survived and their head injuries were recorded.
- veidr 6y ago
  Hmm I am not sure! To be honest, I have spent the time since posting my comment above googling for the post... but no luck yet. The problem is, I think I myself might not have even commented in the thread, so it is hard to search for... anyway, I think it is unlikely to be you, because I wouldn't have laughed at a demand for evidence if it was about legislating a helmet mandate (sure better have real evidence in that case!) but it was more like "I crashed and hit my head on the curb, thank god I was wearing a helmet!"). (I myself mainly get around Tokyo on my VanMoof X2 ebike and almost never wear a helmet...) You've motivated me to keep searching for the comment now, though... ;-)
- godelski 6y ago
  This might be you because I replied to the OP here with what sounds like a very similar article. Does this sound correct? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24532534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24532534
  - 6y ago
Trufa 6y ago
Lol! That’s hilarious. I’m going to hit you in the head with a bat, do you a) wear a helmet b) don’t ware a helmet c) there’s no scientific evidence so I’ll toss a coin. Btw. Here’s a vaguely related discussion on a seemingly paradoxical feature of helmets which I find interesting cause this yes might go against our intuitions in some cases. https://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-bike-helmet-paradox https://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-bike-helmet-paradox
godelski 6y ago
Was this on the article that was about the complicated nature of do helmets make people safe? For hints to people searching I remember it was something about drivers acting differently around people with helmets and non-helmeted cyclists (I don't think the article made hard assertions of what was safer, but boy did the comments. It definitely suggested you should wear one). What I do remember is that the comment section was a complete and utter shit show with people saying cyclists deserve to get hit by cars (but isn't that always true for comment sections including cyclists?)
- veidr 6y ago
  No, although I remember that thread, too, since I am an e-bike enthusiast and evangelist (not for work or anything, I just love e-bikes and am always advocating that people try them). I think the funny comment I am trying to find occurred in a thread that wasn't even about bikes or helmets though, it was just off on some little tangent.
thih9 6y ago
Is your favorite comment here really about something that makes you dislike HN? If yes, could you elaborate? Do you have other places that you prefer? What would you say HN should change to become a better place?
- veidr 6y ago
  No, no, I like HN, and have derived a great deal of value from it over the past 15 years or so (even made meatspace friends from it; the HN Tokyo meetup basically became my entire social life after I had kids). That comment is one of my favorites because it was funny... it was "soooooo Hacker News". It might only have been so funny because I've spent so much time on HN over the years. I don't really use any other websites like this (reddit or whatever). HN is a kind of unique thing for me.
nojs 6y ago
Ha, your comment reminded me of this gem [1] > Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials > Results: We were unable to identify any randomised controlled trials of parachute intervention. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/
7952 6y ago
That kind of thing just proves how important intuition is in framing an argument. People have a baseline and expect evidence when something goes against that baseline. But different people have completely different baselines. The other common area for this is nuclear power (is it easy?) and climate change (is it fragile?). At the heart of those debates are deeper philosophical questions that have little to do with science. But it is always easier to throw around stats than grapple with that.
netc 6y ago
May be this one : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916434

by veidr 6y ago

rolfvandekrol 6y ago

Probably Dutch. We usually get very agitated when someone tells us we should wear bike helmets.

ycombinete 6y ago
You should though
- the-dude 6y ago
  Have you ever been in NL?
- superice 6y ago
  There is ~250 cycling related traffic deaths per year in the Netherlands. Some 60 of those are e-bike related. Normalized per capita that is well above the EU average, but you shouldn't forget that we cycle a lot in the Netherlands, which means that per cycled kilometer, cycling in the Netherlands is still ridiculously safe even without helmets. It has been argued that forcing people to wear a helmet in law will reduce trips taken by bicycle and increase air pollution due to an increased number of trips taken by car (25% of ALL trips in NL are taken by bicycle, versus about 16% in Denmark, to give some comparison). And this is not even counting the psychological effect it has on car drivers and their behavior around people wearing helmets. Besides: cycling injuries and deaths are skewed heavily towards the elderly population (65+), if you're a 20-something person, statistically speaking you're more than fine not wearing a helmet in the Netherlands. Let's not jump to conclusions here about helmets and think this stuff through before shouting 'You should wear a helmet'. It's not quite that black and white. Forcing everybody to wear helmets might very well cause more death and injury than not to. We have taken other precautions to ensure cyclist safety, such as designing our roads to protect them, and those measures make a lot more sense. You shouldn't forget that a helmet only helps a little if you are already in a bad situation (e.g. an accident), so it's much better to prevent that situation from occuring in the first place. The Youtube-channel Not Just Bikes has great explanations about how we approach those problems over here.
  - kqr 6y ago
    Head injuries are more common in cars than bicycles. Before someone tells me I "must" wear a helmet when cycling, I want to see them strap on a helmet when entering a car.
    - Natsu 6y ago
      That's what airbags are for in a car.
    - spacedcowboy 6y ago
      I’ve been hit by a car three times when cycling (only when cycling on an e-bike, car-drivers seem to have difficulty assessing the different speeds involved). The last time, and the time that persuaded me to give up the e-bike resulted in [this](https://0x0000ff.uk/imgs/hit-by-car.png https://0x0000ff.uk/imgs/hit-by-car.png). That top impact is my head, smashing the windscreen. The lower impact is my arm (broken in two places). The side of the car was my knee, breaking the my thigh in the process. I was cycling along, in my cycle lane, with the right of way on a main road. A woman turning left across my path into a side road either didn’t look or didn’t see me. I had time for “Oh Shi” before the impact and the pain. I was wearing a cycle helmet, actually one issued by my work, which is what saved my life that day. The ER nurse said a young woman had also been admitted because of a car accident that evening, but she’d only been wearing a climbing helmet. She died. My body was broken, but I didn’t even get a bruise on my head. I remain a fan of cycle helmets.
      - kqr 6y ago
        That sounds like an awful experience. From the picture, it looks like the crumple zones on the car yielded very kindly to your momentum as well, which is incredibly fortunate. I'm glad you got out of it alive, if with some serious scratches and dings. I'm convinced anyone who would be wearing a helmet when driving a car, and narrowly escaping death in a similar way (e.g. a racing driver who is kept alive by their helmet?) would argue much the same way in favour of helmets when driving cars. It's just more rare because we don't wear helmets when driving cars. What do you think of that line of reasoning?
- dang 6y ago
  Could you please not post unsubstantive comments here?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jtwaleson 6y ago
Dutch feelings about bike helmets are close to American feelings about the second amendment.

blululu 6y ago

FWIW I usually do appreciate citations/links to scientific research. Online discussions can devolve quickly and a culture that demands quality information to back up statements is more resilient to a lot of common issues with online discussions. Even if the result seems obvious, there can be a lot of interesting material in the primary source.

nicbou 6y ago

Maybe it's not such a bad thing. Sometimes the numbers make a very convincing case. Take motorcycle helmets. In over 40% of motorcycle accidents, you hit the chin bar, or what's under it. It's an undeniable argument in favour of a full face helmet.

johnchristopher 6y ago

Wait, could that be me ? I had that exact conversation on HN. I was the one asking for studies (and my previous comment was sthg like "helmets should be mandatory" then I was told "do you realize it increases injuries ?" then I ask for proof) and the reasoning in the studies was that making helmets mandatory decreased car drivers' attention to cyclists making them less cautious around them, resulting in more serious injuries. Strangely neither can I find those comments at the time. I have the fuzzy memory that it was about a bikes around Sydney or Australia but HN comments tend to derail from the initial submission so I can't be sure. edit: found it ! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262081

nicbou 6y ago
It might be increasing injuries the same way helmets did when they were introduced during the first world war. All those head injuries would have been fatalities. Instead their wearers survived and their head injuries were recorded.
veidr 6y ago
Hmm I am not sure! To be honest, I have spent the time since posting my comment above googling for the post... but no luck yet. The problem is, I think I myself might not have even commented in the thread, so it is hard to search for... anyway, I think it is unlikely to be you, because I wouldn't have laughed at a demand for evidence if it was about legislating a helmet mandate (sure better have real evidence in that case!) but it was more like "I crashed and hit my head on the curb, thank god I was wearing a helmet!"). (I myself mainly get around Tokyo on my VanMoof X2 ebike and almost never wear a helmet...) You've motivated me to keep searching for the comment now, though... ;-)
godelski 6y ago
This might be you because I replied to the OP here with what sounds like a very similar article. Does this sound correct? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24532534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24532534
- 6y ago

Trufa 6y ago

Lol! That’s hilarious. I’m going to hit you in the head with a bat, do you a) wear a helmet b) don’t ware a helmet c) there’s no scientific evidence so I’ll toss a coin. Btw. Here’s a vaguely related discussion on a seemingly paradoxical feature of helmets which I find interesting cause this yes might go against our intuitions in some cases. https://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-bike-helmet-paradox https://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-bike-helmet-paradox

godelski 6y ago

Was this on the article that was about the complicated nature of do helmets make people safe? For hints to people searching I remember it was something about drivers acting differently around people with helmets and non-helmeted cyclists (I don't think the article made hard assertions of what was safer, but boy did the comments. It definitely suggested you should wear one). What I do remember is that the comment section was a complete and utter shit show with people saying cyclists deserve to get hit by cars (but isn't that always true for comment sections including cyclists?)

veidr 6y ago
No, although I remember that thread, too, since I am an e-bike enthusiast and evangelist (not for work or anything, I just love e-bikes and am always advocating that people try them). I think the funny comment I am trying to find occurred in a thread that wasn't even about bikes or helmets though, it was just off on some little tangent.

thih9 6y ago

Is your favorite comment here really about something that makes you dislike HN? If yes, could you elaborate? Do you have other places that you prefer? What would you say HN should change to become a better place?

veidr 6y ago
No, no, I like HN, and have derived a great deal of value from it over the past 15 years or so (even made meatspace friends from it; the HN Tokyo meetup basically became my entire social life after I had kids). That comment is one of my favorites because it was funny... it was "soooooo Hacker News". It might only have been so funny because I've spent so much time on HN over the years. I don't really use any other websites like this (reddit or whatever). HN is a kind of unique thing for me.

nojs 6y ago

Ha, your comment reminded me of this gem [1] > Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials > Results: We were unable to identify any randomised controlled trials of parachute intervention. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/

7952 6y ago

That kind of thing just proves how important intuition is in framing an argument. People have a baseline and expect evidence when something goes against that baseline. But different people have completely different baselines. The other common area for this is nuclear power (is it easy?) and climate change (is it fragile?). At the heart of those debates are deeper philosophical questions that have little to do with science. But it is always easier to throw around stats than grapple with that.

netc 6y ago

May be this one : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916434