5 ms·

I hope that the church will change with the times, similar to the way their practices and beliefs with respect to racism have changed since the 60s [1]. Howeve

by djaque 6y ago

I hope that the church will change with the times, similar to the way their practices and beliefs with respect to racism have changed since the 60s [1]. However, I wouldn't take the pope's words as a sign of that change. I have friends who are gay or lesbian and formerly part of the catholic church. When he says that god loves them, I assume it is in the sense that god loves everyone, even sinners. From what I understand, gay people are seen kind of like drug addicts by the church. People who are worthy of pitty, but are still considered "sick". Being told that you are sick from your earliest memories because of who you are attracted to, something you don't have control over, leaves lasting scars on a person. All of my gay friends who left catholicism grew up killing that part of themselves and pretending to be someone they are not for like the first two decades of their life. The rest of their life has been spent trying to rebuild themselves from that. From literally being taught to hate themselves for what they are. The one friend I have who did come out as a teenager was dissowned by her parents and had to move in with a relative. She spent two years living out of a cousin's house and people like her who are less fortunate are out there without a home right now for the crime of being gay. I really hope that the church will adapt and recognize the real damage they are inflicting on children, but like I said, I'm not very optimistic. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_race https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_race

lowdose 6y ago
> Being told that you are sick from your earliest memories because of who you are attracted to, something you don't have control over, leaves lasting scars on a person. Isn't that with every deviation of normal?
- krapp 6y ago
  No, most other deviations from normal aren't considered a sin against God and a crime against nature, excepting maybe some forms of mental illness misdiagnosed as "demonic possession" by the ignorant. No one is setting up "conversion camps" for redheads or lefties or trying to pray away the diabetes, for instance.
  - lowdose 6y ago
    Im was referring to narcism, autism, ADHD and the rest of what is classified by DSM 5 which similar institutions as the church use to classify people as sick. DSM 1 also classified non hetero behavior as sick.
zozbot234 6y ago
> From what I understand, gay people are seen kind of like drug addicts by the church. People who are worthy of pitty, but are still considered "sick". This is not at all the case in Christian doctrine that I'm aware of. "Gay" is a sexual orientation, and Christians including Catholics have no objection to sexual orientation per se. However it is possible to object to disordered sexual practices, such as heterosexual fornication that inherently denies the true human dignity of those who are objectified by such practices, and also to other practices that are similarly objectifying and involve victimization and denial of human dignity. Separately, Christian doctrine also objects to those who "put a stumbling block in the blind's path" by promoting destructive practices e.g. via ideology or lifestyle, and unfortunately a sizeable part of so-called LGBTQ+ social activism has not clearly spoken out against objectifying and disordered practices, and in many cases has promoted them quite irresponsibly. However this is always a critique of some highly-visible social activist movements, never of sexual orientation itself!
- djaque 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't jive with my friend's real lived experience. They grew up being told that they were broken and endured life long pain from that upbringing. My friend was literally disowned by her parents who still refuse to talk to her. They (my friends) aren't Catholic. They are good people who didn't deserve to be put through that experience just because of one religion's sense of morality.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    This is all very sad, but it's not clear to me how it's supposed to relate to any religious denomination's actual sense of morality. It's true that Jesus himself has told us, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’" However what he means to say here is that even good Christians will sometimes have to endure rejection, persecution and being disowned by their families. Christian morality however has always advocated for acceptance.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> However, I wouldn't take the pope's words as a sign of that change. I have friends who are gay or lesbian and formerly part of the catholic church. When he says that god loves them, I assume it is in the sense that god loves everyone, even sinners. It's pretty clear that Francis himself is not interested in doctrinal change on this issue, but in changing focus and pastoral approach. OTOH, historically that's where change often starts. > From what I understand, gay people are seen kind of like drug addicts by the church. People who are worthy of pitty, but are still considered "sick". Doctrinally, this is no more true of people who have a homosexual orientation than of people who have any other source of temptation to behavior that the Church sees as sinful. It's true that, pastorally, lots of people in prominent positions in the Church have focussed on this a lot with regard to homosexuality, but that pastoral approach seems to one thing that Francis wants to change.

by djaque 6y ago

lowdose 6y ago

> Being told that you are sick from your earliest memories because of who you are attracted to, something you don't have control over, leaves lasting scars on a person. Isn't that with every deviation of normal?

krapp 6y ago
No, most other deviations from normal aren't considered a sin against God and a crime against nature, excepting maybe some forms of mental illness misdiagnosed as "demonic possession" by the ignorant. No one is setting up "conversion camps" for redheads or lefties or trying to pray away the diabetes, for instance.
- lowdose 6y ago
  Im was referring to narcism, autism, ADHD and the rest of what is classified by DSM 5 which similar institutions as the church use to classify people as sick. DSM 1 also classified non hetero behavior as sick.

zozbot234 6y ago

> From what I understand, gay people are seen kind of like drug addicts by the church. People who are worthy of pitty, but are still considered "sick". This is not at all the case in Christian doctrine that I'm aware of. "Gay" is a sexual orientation, and Christians including Catholics have no objection to sexual orientation per se. However it is possible to object to disordered sexual practices, such as heterosexual fornication that inherently denies the true human dignity of those who are objectified by such practices, and also to other practices that are similarly objectifying and involve victimization and denial of human dignity. Separately, Christian doctrine also objects to those who "put a stumbling block in the blind's path" by promoting destructive practices e.g. via ideology or lifestyle, and unfortunately a sizeable part of so-called LGBTQ+ social activism has not clearly spoken out against objectifying and disordered practices, and in many cases has promoted them quite irresponsibly. However this is always a critique of some highly-visible social activist movements, never of sexual orientation itself!

djaque 6y ago
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't jive with my friend's real lived experience. They grew up being told that they were broken and endured life long pain from that upbringing. My friend was literally disowned by her parents who still refuse to talk to her. They (my friends) aren't Catholic. They are good people who didn't deserve to be put through that experience just because of one religion's sense of morality.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  This is all very sad, but it's not clear to me how it's supposed to relate to any religious denomination's actual sense of morality. It's true that Jesus himself has told us, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’" However what he means to say here is that even good Christians will sometimes have to endure rejection, persecution and being disowned by their families. Christian morality however has always advocated for acceptance.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> However, I wouldn't take the pope's words as a sign of that change. I have friends who are gay or lesbian and formerly part of the catholic church. When he says that god loves them, I assume it is in the sense that god loves everyone, even sinners. It's pretty clear that Francis himself is not interested in doctrinal change on this issue, but in changing focus and pastoral approach. OTOH, historically that's where change often starts. > From what I understand, gay people are seen kind of like drug addicts by the church. People who are worthy of pitty, but are still considered "sick". Doctrinally, this is no more true of people who have a homosexual orientation than of people who have any other source of temptation to behavior that the Church sees as sinful. It's true that, pastorally, lots of people in prominent positions in the Church have focussed on this a lot with regard to homosexuality, but that pastoral approach seems to one thing that Francis wants to change.