6 ms·

The 'extinct' Colorado Orange Apple: How a couple on a mission found it

33 points by dsr12 6y ago

MichaelZuo 6y ago
A lot of naming is misleading, in this case “extinct” should probably have been called “believed to be extinct”. Of course proving something is extinct is quite difficult, perhaps infeasible for the small organisms. So maybe also a “provisionally extinct” category?
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  There are definitely cases where that distinction is made due to reasonable uncertainty, but there is no line. Proving it is more than difficult - it's impossible.
  - MichaelZuo 6y ago
    Well impossible means that it can never be done, which I wouldn’t put past the capabilities of some far future civilization. There are a finite number of ways something can be alive, at least in the current consensus. ‘infeasible’ is probably a better way to describe our present capabilities.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  There is a convention that an organism that can't be found anywhere by scientists (with a reasonable effort) in the last 50 years is classified as extinct. In the meanwhile is 'probably extinct' or even 'functionally extinct' (If only specimens of a sex, or unfertile remain) but is not the same category. This is a cultivar, not a species, but the idea is similar. If we talk of a fruit that was forgotten after 1920, yes, it was extinct. In any case the image of the dying tree with a last branch is suspiciously romantic, and wax fruits are not a real proof of anything. Without DNA analysis we can't guarantee that this is the real thing, could be also a seedling, a different clone mutated, or a forgotten cultivar that lost its tag, but is still sold in other place under a different name. When a fruit is forgotten there is normally a good reason. Maybe, being so similar to Cox's Orange, will show poor resistance to fungus diseases. There is no reason to reproduce a worse version of Cox (and in the article I would expect a genetic comparison between both apples at least).
Alex3917 6y ago
Is there a good place to learn about new apple cultivars? I want to plant some apple trees, but since they would be in a backyard orchard there isn't any need for them to be commercially viable, just whatever tastes good. I know there are heirloom Apple orchards and festivals I can go to, but not sure where to find info on more modern cultivars beyond the ones like SnapDragon and Cosmic Crisp that have huge commercial releases. It's a lot easier to learn about things like North American Pawpaws and American persimmons, because there are only a couple people working on the genetics for each and you don't have millions of dollars worth of SEO spam preventing any useful information from surfacing.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  The most important thing to know about new apple cultivars is that they are treated exactly the same as models. With so much money at stake Photoshop is everywhere. You can find easily examples of applying skin filters to smooth surface in fruit images, or digitally manipulating the tone to obtain outstanding ink-black or blue-black apples... that of course, aren't real.
- quercusa 6y ago
  I'd encourage you look at some of the heirloom varieties that you'll never find in a grocery store. There are fantastic old apples that aren't a good fit for commercial production but are awesome in the back yard (depending where you live). Check out Esopus Spitzenberg or Cox's Orange Pippin.
  - jdhn 6y ago
    Is there a preferred place to buy these heirloom varieties of apples?
    - quercusa 6y ago
      I bought some years ago from Raintree Nursery[0] and was very happy with them. Their selection seems smaller these days. Trees of Antiquity[1] seems to have a huge variety but I have no experience with them. [0] https://raintreenursery.com/collections/apple-trees https://raintreenursery.com/collections/apple-trees [1] https://www.treesofantiquity.com/collections/apple-trees https://www.treesofantiquity.com/collections/apple-trees (Earlier typo: Spitzenburg, not -berg)
jerrysievert 6y ago
I'd love for there to be an affordable way to test wild growing or even "abandoned" apples to figure out their genetics. it you can do it easily with cannabis, why not fruits and vegetables?
anfilt 6y ago
A wax apple... Not the most solid proof. That just proves it has the right appearance. (although if there is a distinctive feature might be good enough) Honestly, was expecting that they found either an old seed or dried sample to compare genetics. Better than nothing though. Honestly, surprised no has even a dried leaf.

33 points by dsr12 6y ago

A lot of naming is misleading, in this case “extinct” should probably have been called “believed to be extinct”. Of course proving something is extinct is quite difficult, perhaps infeasible for the small organisms. So maybe also a “provisionally extinct” category?

happytoexplain 6y ago
There are definitely cases where that distinction is made due to reasonable uncertainty, but there is no line. Proving it is more than difficult - it's impossible.
- MichaelZuo 6y ago
  Well impossible means that it can never be done, which I wouldn’t put past the capabilities of some far future civilization. There are a finite number of ways something can be alive, at least in the current consensus. ‘infeasible’ is probably a better way to describe our present capabilities.
pvaldes 6y ago
There is a convention that an organism that can't be found anywhere by scientists (with a reasonable effort) in the last 50 years is classified as extinct. In the meanwhile is 'probably extinct' or even 'functionally extinct' (If only specimens of a sex, or unfertile remain) but is not the same category. This is a cultivar, not a species, but the idea is similar. If we talk of a fruit that was forgotten after 1920, yes, it was extinct. In any case the image of the dying tree with a last branch is suspiciously romantic, and wax fruits are not a real proof of anything. Without DNA analysis we can't guarantee that this is the real thing, could be also a seedling, a different clone mutated, or a forgotten cultivar that lost its tag, but is still sold in other place under a different name. When a fruit is forgotten there is normally a good reason. Maybe, being so similar to Cox's Orange, will show poor resistance to fungus diseases. There is no reason to reproduce a worse version of Cox (and in the article I would expect a genetic comparison between both apples at least).

Alex3917 6y ago

Is there a good place to learn about new apple cultivars? I want to plant some apple trees, but since they would be in a backyard orchard there isn't any need for them to be commercially viable, just whatever tastes good. I know there are heirloom Apple orchards and festivals I can go to, but not sure where to find info on more modern cultivars beyond the ones like SnapDragon and Cosmic Crisp that have huge commercial releases. It's a lot easier to learn about things like North American Pawpaws and American persimmons, because there are only a couple people working on the genetics for each and you don't have millions of dollars worth of SEO spam preventing any useful information from surfacing.

pvaldes 6y ago
The most important thing to know about new apple cultivars is that they are treated exactly the same as models. With so much money at stake Photoshop is everywhere. You can find easily examples of applying skin filters to smooth surface in fruit images, or digitally manipulating the tone to obtain outstanding ink-black or blue-black apples... that of course, aren't real.
quercusa 6y ago
I'd encourage you look at some of the heirloom varieties that you'll never find in a grocery store. There are fantastic old apples that aren't a good fit for commercial production but are awesome in the back yard (depending where you live). Check out Esopus Spitzenberg or Cox's Orange Pippin.
- jdhn 6y ago
  Is there a preferred place to buy these heirloom varieties of apples?
  - quercusa 6y ago
    I bought some years ago from Raintree Nursery[0] and was very happy with them. Their selection seems smaller these days. Trees of Antiquity[1] seems to have a huge variety but I have no experience with them. [0] https://raintreenursery.com/collections/apple-trees https://raintreenursery.com/collections/apple-trees [1] https://www.treesofantiquity.com/collections/apple-trees https://www.treesofantiquity.com/collections/apple-trees (Earlier typo: Spitzenburg, not -berg)

jerrysievert 6y ago

I'd love for there to be an affordable way to test wild growing or even "abandoned" apples to figure out their genetics. it you can do it easily with cannabis, why not fruits and vegetables?

anfilt 6y ago

A wax apple... Not the most solid proof. That just proves it has the right appearance. (although if there is a distinctive feature might be good enough) Honestly, was expecting that they found either an old seed or dried sample to compare genetics. Better than nothing though. Honestly, surprised no has even a dried leaf.