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>The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights. I disagree. I think we had torture so tha

>The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights. I disagree. I think we had torture so that a President could look tough on National Security as a re-election strategy. Not-torturing people and "identity politics" are not mutually exclusive, there is no reason that we couldn't have both. "Identity politics" is fundamentally about human liberty and the dignity of the individual, a.k.a. individualism, which is also the same moral foundation that most arguments against torture rest on. Advancing the rights of the individual advances the case against torture.

leephillips 6y ago
In practice, human rights do take a back seat to identity politics. One of the most widespread forms of torture in the world, female genital mutilation, is out of bounds even for criticism, in the eyes of the typical person of the “left” in the U.S., and many Western European countries, today. Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. You can not consider the way in which the “left” regards Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and seriously think that this crowd considers human rights to be even of passing importance.
- pftf 6y ago
  > the “left” Makes sense that you put this in quote marks, given that you're just inventing wild caricatures to argue against.
- GOONIMMUNE 6y ago
  As a leftist myself, I can't recall ever talking to another leftist who supported female genital mutilation, or called someone a racist for criticizing it. I think you're talking out your butt
  - jowsie 6y ago
    Just wanted to echo this. Have never seen anyone called racist for speaking out against female genital mutilation.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    They've developed a false argument. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a vocal critic of female genital mutilation, but many of her other positions are islamophobic. Positions like "we are at war with Islam and it must be defeated." In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      Islam isn’t a race. Criticisms of religions are perfectly reasonable and valid positions to hold.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        Calling for Muslims to be militarily crushed isn't criticism, its bigotry of some sort even if you don't consider it racist.
    - Viliam1234 6y ago
      > In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist. Of course you can. But became sufficiently famous doing so, and you will probably also find yourself on some list of "problematic" people. In case I am completely wrong about this, the best way to convince me would be to provide a name of a recent famous speaker against female genital mutilation who is considered politically correct.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        > course you can. But became sufficiently famous doing so, and you will probably also find yourself on some list of "problematic" people This acts like people were out to vilify her, when she publicly holds incredibly offensive positions. OK, I'll bite. Former congressman Joe Crowley Layli Miller-Muro Nimco Ali Comfort Momoh Waris Dirie
        Viliam1234 6y ago
        Thank you! Never heard about them before, but they have a Wikipedia page each, so obviously other people did. That's a good news!
- jancsika 6y ago
  > Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. I am vehemently opposed to female genital mutilation. Even with HN's overly large number of contrarians and trolls, I claim no one can write a convincing argument that my previous sentence is in any way racist.
  - haha697 6y ago
    Why is it okay to perform the similar procedures on males? It's an outdated , barbaric practice
    - stjohnswarts 6y ago
      I agree, end it all. Save the foreskins.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    As long as you speak as if female genital mutilation exists in a vacuum, as long as you carefully avoid mentioning that some cultures are more supportive of this practice than others, as long as you do not point out that some girls are at much greater risk than the general population and that any meaningful prevention needs to focus on them... you are okay. This also makes it impossible to suggest any policy with a realistic possibility to actually reduce female genital mutilation.
    - leephillips 6y ago
      Bingo.
mantap 6y ago
I'm not saying it's bad to have both. It's bad to have identity politics without first having human rights. Human rights are the foundation on which to build an equal society. Attempting to achieve equality before a even a right to life is secured is perverse and cannot work. Is it no wonder that the police in USA murder black people, when the state also does so?
- codezero 6y ago
  Which human rights are being deprioritized and in exchange for what lgbtq rights? If you say they put X above Y, I feel like you should quantify that with something.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  They'll probably have more time to concentrate on basic human rights soon with the Republicans sure to vote in an anti-gay, anti-abortion, racist, anti-women's rights SCOTUS judge. There won't be any "swing vote" anymore. Roe v. Wade is history unless the democrats win both houses and the Presidency and can add 3 more left leaning SCOTUS judges. Say goodbye to voter rights, minority rights, and anything even slightly related to queer rights.

leephillips 6y ago

In practice, human rights do take a back seat to identity politics. One of the most widespread forms of torture in the world, female genital mutilation, is out of bounds even for criticism, in the eyes of the typical person of the “left” in the U.S., and many Western European countries, today. Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. You can not consider the way in which the “left” regards Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and seriously think that this crowd considers human rights to be even of passing importance.

pftf 6y ago
> the “left” Makes sense that you put this in quote marks, given that you're just inventing wild caricatures to argue against.
GOONIMMUNE 6y ago
As a leftist myself, I can't recall ever talking to another leftist who supported female genital mutilation, or called someone a racist for criticizing it. I think you're talking out your butt
- jowsie 6y ago
  Just wanted to echo this. Have never seen anyone called racist for speaking out against female genital mutilation.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  They've developed a false argument. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a vocal critic of female genital mutilation, but many of her other positions are islamophobic. Positions like "we are at war with Islam and it must be defeated." In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Islam isn’t a race. Criticisms of religions are perfectly reasonable and valid positions to hold.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      Calling for Muslims to be militarily crushed isn't criticism, its bigotry of some sort even if you don't consider it racist.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    > In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist. Of course you can. But became sufficiently famous doing so, and you will probably also find yourself on some list of "problematic" people. In case I am completely wrong about this, the best way to convince me would be to provide a name of a recent famous speaker against female genital mutilation who is considered politically correct.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      > course you can. But became sufficiently famous doing so, and you will probably also find yourself on some list of "problematic" people This acts like people were out to vilify her, when she publicly holds incredibly offensive positions. OK, I'll bite. Former congressman Joe Crowley Layli Miller-Muro Nimco Ali Comfort Momoh Waris Dirie
      - Viliam1234 6y ago
        Thank you! Never heard about them before, but they have a Wikipedia page each, so obviously other people did. That's a good news!
jancsika 6y ago
> Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. I am vehemently opposed to female genital mutilation. Even with HN's overly large number of contrarians and trolls, I claim no one can write a convincing argument that my previous sentence is in any way racist.
- haha697 6y ago
  Why is it okay to perform the similar procedures on males? It's an outdated , barbaric practice
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    I agree, end it all. Save the foreskins.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  As long as you speak as if female genital mutilation exists in a vacuum, as long as you carefully avoid mentioning that some cultures are more supportive of this practice than others, as long as you do not point out that some girls are at much greater risk than the general population and that any meaningful prevention needs to focus on them... you are okay. This also makes it impossible to suggest any policy with a realistic possibility to actually reduce female genital mutilation.
  - leephillips 6y ago
    Bingo.

mantap 6y ago

I'm not saying it's bad to have both. It's bad to have identity politics without first having human rights. Human rights are the foundation on which to build an equal society. Attempting to achieve equality before a even a right to life is secured is perverse and cannot work. Is it no wonder that the police in USA murder black people, when the state also does so?

codezero 6y ago
Which human rights are being deprioritized and in exchange for what lgbtq rights? If you say they put X above Y, I feel like you should quantify that with something.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
They'll probably have more time to concentrate on basic human rights soon with the Republicans sure to vote in an anti-gay, anti-abortion, racist, anti-women's rights SCOTUS judge. There won't be any "swing vote" anymore. Roe v. Wade is history unless the democrats win both houses and the Presidency and can add 3 more left leaning SCOTUS judges. Say goodbye to voter rights, minority rights, and anything even slightly related to queer rights.