6 ms·

Are you referring to the following story, where the US government is suing a hospital for not respecting the religious morality of a nurse? https://www.bbc.com

Are you referring to the following story, where the US government is suing a hospital for not respecting the religious morality of a nurse? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49515372 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49515372

rayiner 6y ago
Yes, among other things: https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-judge-strikes-down-rule-on-conscience-provisions-for-medical-providers-11573064086 https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-judge-strikes-down-rule.... Opposition to conscience rights--forcing medical providers to provide contraception or abortions in non-emergency situations when it is against their religious beliefs--is the next policy front for certain organizations: https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-refusal-laws https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-refusal-laws. Nearly all EU countries recognize such conscience rights. Eliminating them would put the U.S. squarely outside the mainstream on this issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection_to_abortion#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection_to_abo... ("Conscientious objection is granted in 22 member states of the European Union plus the United Kingdom, Norway and Switzerland.").
- projektfu 6y ago
  So the libertarian position is now that conscience cannot be protected by contract law between consenting parties?
  - rayiner 6y ago
    The context of this is laws that would require providers to provide certain services, under which such a contract would be deemed illegally opting out (as set forth in the court case linked above). That’s the whole point of this effort.
    - projektfu 6y ago
      Is there a law in the US that forces a doctor to perform an abortion or a nurse to participate? Aside from one that says that your employer can ask you to fulfill the terms of your contract or lose your job? It seems that the vast majority of laws limiting physician freedom are being proposed or passed to prevent them from performing abortions, counseling patients about abortion, or discuss guns in the household.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        Even in the absence of a specific law, medical providers can always be sued. Part of the push to redefine elective abortion from a right rooted in bodily autonomy to being “routine healthcare” is to open providers to lawsuits for refusing to provide them: https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/390968-abortion-refusal-laws-are-not-about-religion-but-about-control https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/390968-abortion-refus...
        projektfu 6y ago
        Ah, now you’re reminding me of a case in Ireland where they let the Hindu, not Catholic, patient die because they did not believe in abortion. That is not a scenario I want in my life. Doctors choosing your morals for you and calling it their conscience? I guess it’s the libertarian thing. Your right to swing your arm ends at my nose.
        rayiner 6y ago
        Except it’s not just about emergency care. (In that case I’d argue it’s a critical public safety issue.) Advocacy groups are targeting the practice generally, because providers opting out can mean that people have to travel further to get an elective abortion, sterilization, contraception, etc. You don’t have to be all that libertarian to believe that in non-emergency situations, doctors should be able to tell people to go somewhere else to get a procedure the doctor doesn’t wish to perform. And, of course, since the doctor is also an active participant in killing the fetus, it’s not the “doctor imposing morals in the patient.”

rayiner 6y ago

Yes, among other things: https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-judge-strikes-down-rule-on-conscience-provisions-for-medical-providers-11573064086 https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-judge-strikes-down-rule.... Opposition to conscience rights--forcing medical providers to provide contraception or abortions in non-emergency situations when it is against their religious beliefs--is the next policy front for certain organizations: https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-refusal-laws https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-refusal-laws. Nearly all EU countries recognize such conscience rights. Eliminating them would put the U.S. squarely outside the mainstream on this issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection_to_abortion#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection_to_abo... ("Conscientious objection is granted in 22 member states of the European Union plus the United Kingdom, Norway and Switzerland.").

projektfu 6y ago
So the libertarian position is now that conscience cannot be protected by contract law between consenting parties?
- rayiner 6y ago
  The context of this is laws that would require providers to provide certain services, under which such a contract would be deemed illegally opting out (as set forth in the court case linked above). That’s the whole point of this effort.
  - projektfu 6y ago
    Is there a law in the US that forces a doctor to perform an abortion or a nurse to participate? Aside from one that says that your employer can ask you to fulfill the terms of your contract or lose your job? It seems that the vast majority of laws limiting physician freedom are being proposed or passed to prevent them from performing abortions, counseling patients about abortion, or discuss guns in the household.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Even in the absence of a specific law, medical providers can always be sued. Part of the push to redefine elective abortion from a right rooted in bodily autonomy to being “routine healthcare” is to open providers to lawsuits for refusing to provide them: https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/390968-abortion-refusal-laws-are-not-about-religion-but-about-control https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/390968-abortion-refus...
      - projektfu 6y ago
        Ah, now you’re reminding me of a case in Ireland where they let the Hindu, not Catholic, patient die because they did not believe in abortion. That is not a scenario I want in my life. Doctors choosing your morals for you and calling it their conscience? I guess it’s the libertarian thing. Your right to swing your arm ends at my nose.
        rayiner 6y ago
        Except it’s not just about emergency care. (In that case I’d argue it’s a critical public safety issue.) Advocacy groups are targeting the practice generally, because providers opting out can mean that people have to travel further to get an elective abortion, sterilization, contraception, etc. You don’t have to be all that libertarian to believe that in non-emergency situations, doctors should be able to tell people to go somewhere else to get a procedure the doctor doesn’t wish to perform. And, of course, since the doctor is also an active participant in killing the fetus, it’s not the “doctor imposing morals in the patient.”