8 ms·

What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass

What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).

mantap 6y ago
The former is distraction for the others. The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights.
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  Does the USA have a left today? The right who voted for the new deal are left of today’s left. Today’s left are more right than yesterday’s right.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    They do, but it isn't represented in either of their two parties. The Liberal party and the Far Right party both do their best to ignore the leftists. That said, at the local and house level there is an increase in left candidates getting elected. We'll see where that goes.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Yep, the two major parties are "center-right" and "far-right" politically. There are some leftists but they aren't represented, and because of the two-party system they won't be. Two parties ~= one party.
    - stjohnswarts 6y ago
      AOC and her squad are very far left and they're mainstream.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        Centrists.
      - CraigJPerry 6y ago
        >> very far left On what grounds? AOC, like Sanders, advocates for centrist policies like those in the UK. AOC is a left leaning centrist. The rhetoric in the US does label her and Sanders extreme left but that’s evidence in favour of my point - there is no left in the USA. Who is the USA’s version of John McDonnell telling us all that there’s a lot to learn from Das Kapital?
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        AOC is centre left, somewhere between Canada’s ruling Liberal party and the NDP currently endorsing them (its a minority government this time). NDP is a little further left IMO but not far off.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    Please go back and cite me some references where they defended black rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, etc. I'll be waiting with bated breath.
    - CraigJPerry 6y ago
      The indian reorganisation act? ...and breathe again
- EthanHeilman 6y ago
  >The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights. I disagree. I think we had torture so that a President could look tough on National Security as a re-election strategy. Not-torturing people and "identity politics" are not mutually exclusive, there is no reason that we couldn't have both. "Identity politics" is fundamentally about human liberty and the dignity of the individual, a.k.a. individualism, which is also the same moral foundation that most arguments against torture rest on. Advancing the rights of the individual advances the case against torture.
  - leephillips 6y ago
    In practice, human rights do take a back seat to identity politics. One of the most widespread forms of torture in the world, female genital mutilation, is out of bounds even for criticism, in the eyes of the typical person of the “left” in the U.S., and many Western European countries, today. Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. You can not consider the way in which the “left” regards Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and seriously think that this crowd considers human rights to be even of passing importance.
    - pftf 6y ago
      > the “left” Makes sense that you put this in quote marks, given that you're just inventing wild caricatures to argue against.
    - GOONIMMUNE 6y ago
      As a leftist myself, I can't recall ever talking to another leftist who supported female genital mutilation, or called someone a racist for criticizing it. I think you're talking out your butt
      - jowsie 6y ago
        Just wanted to echo this. Have never seen anyone called racist for speaking out against female genital mutilation.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  This is because there is almost no US left. What you call the left are liberals, and liberals have always been like this (See: Pete Seeger's song "Love Me I'm a Liberal".
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
  What does identity politics have to do with human rights, and why does one preclude the other? Your statement makes it out to seem that you simply don't like what you consider "identity politics" and wanted to bring that into the discussion, regardless of how irrelevant it is.
  - ifmpx 6y ago
    You're being uncharitable in your reading. GP is rightfully pointing out that political discourse is far often centered on identity politics to the exclusion of more important topics such as human rights. No one is saying that one precludes the other except you.
    - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
      Like someone else said, which rights are being displaced by "identity" politics? Once again, this is nothing but white anxiety about the public discourse concerning race. Nothing more.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Hnrobert42 6y ago
The U.S. is not a monolith. Even I, as an individual, have contradictory traits. The U.S. is the outcome of vast government, corporate, and individual actions across a large, geographically dispersed population with enough money and power that when we make a mistake, everyone gets hurt.
rbanffy 6y ago
The US is a very large and diverse place.
arcticbull 6y ago
The US is not particularly progressive on LGBT rights.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  LGBT have equal rights in the US.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Not really. More than in some places to be sure. 1. Until June 16, 2020, that you could be fired for being gay or transgender. And that's not even a blanket ruling, as religious institutions in the US are basically exempt from the Civil Rights Act protections. 2. It's still illegal to use one bathroom or another as a transgender person depending on which state you're in. 3. Transgender people are not allowed in the US military. The list goes on, that's just kinda off the top of my head.
    - refurb 6y ago
      The US is more progressive than many European states.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_European_Un...
    - 0xy 6y ago
      Do you think it's beneficial for the US military to accept transgender people who, according to dozens of studies, have substantially higher rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation and other negative side effects? Additionally, some of the hormone blocking drugs can cause bone loss (presenting a real physical risk). Obviously, this has innumerable risks in a military environment from an objective standpoint. In fact, even post-transition, suicidal ideation is still orders of magnitude higher than average.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        This comment won’t look good on you in a few years, I’m sure, and it reminds me of the kind of things people used to say about accepting women into the armed forces. You pass basic training just the same so half your arguments are null right there. If you can’t pass basic training they don’t care what’s between your legs, you’re going home.
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
Some groups in the US are very progressive on some issues. We still have larges swathes of the country that are backwards and like the torture that is mentioned in the article.

What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).

mantap 6y ago

The former is distraction for the others. The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights.

CraigJPerry 6y ago
Does the USA have a left today? The right who voted for the new deal are left of today’s left. Today’s left are more right than yesterday’s right.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  They do, but it isn't represented in either of their two parties. The Liberal party and the Far Right party both do their best to ignore the leftists. That said, at the local and house level there is an increase in left candidates getting elected. We'll see where that goes.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Yep, the two major parties are "center-right" and "far-right" politically. There are some leftists but they aren't represented, and because of the two-party system they won't be. Two parties ~= one party.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    AOC and her squad are very far left and they're mainstream.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      Centrists.
    - CraigJPerry 6y ago
      >> very far left On what grounds? AOC, like Sanders, advocates for centrist policies like those in the UK. AOC is a left leaning centrist. The rhetoric in the US does label her and Sanders extreme left but that’s evidence in favour of my point - there is no left in the USA. Who is the USA’s version of John McDonnell telling us all that there’s a lot to learn from Das Kapital?
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      AOC is centre left, somewhere between Canada’s ruling Liberal party and the NDP currently endorsing them (its a minority government this time). NDP is a little further left IMO but not far off.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Please go back and cite me some references where they defended black rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, etc. I'll be waiting with bated breath.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    The indian reorganisation act? ...and breathe again
EthanHeilman 6y ago
>The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights. I disagree. I think we had torture so that a President could look tough on National Security as a re-election strategy. Not-torturing people and "identity politics" are not mutually exclusive, there is no reason that we couldn't have both. "Identity politics" is fundamentally about human liberty and the dignity of the individual, a.k.a. individualism, which is also the same moral foundation that most arguments against torture rest on. Advancing the rights of the individual advances the case against torture.
- leephillips 6y ago
  In practice, human rights do take a back seat to identity politics. One of the most widespread forms of torture in the world, female genital mutilation, is out of bounds even for criticism, in the eyes of the typical person of the “left” in the U.S., and many Western European countries, today. Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. You can not consider the way in which the “left” regards Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and seriously think that this crowd considers human rights to be even of passing importance.
  - pftf 6y ago
    > the “left” Makes sense that you put this in quote marks, given that you're just inventing wild caricatures to argue against.
  - GOONIMMUNE 6y ago
    As a leftist myself, I can't recall ever talking to another leftist who supported female genital mutilation, or called someone a racist for criticizing it. I think you're talking out your butt
    - jowsie 6y ago
      Just wanted to echo this. Have never seen anyone called racist for speaking out against female genital mutilation.
sudosysgen 6y ago
This is because there is almost no US left. What you call the left are liberals, and liberals have always been like this (See: Pete Seeger's song "Love Me I'm a Liberal".
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
What does identity politics have to do with human rights, and why does one preclude the other? Your statement makes it out to seem that you simply don't like what you consider "identity politics" and wanted to bring that into the discussion, regardless of how irrelevant it is.
- ifmpx 6y ago
  You're being uncharitable in your reading. GP is rightfully pointing out that political discourse is far often centered on identity politics to the exclusion of more important topics such as human rights. No one is saying that one precludes the other except you.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    Like someone else said, which rights are being displaced by "identity" politics? Once again, this is nothing but white anxiety about the public discourse concerning race. Nothing more.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Hnrobert42 6y ago

The U.S. is not a monolith. Even I, as an individual, have contradictory traits. The U.S. is the outcome of vast government, corporate, and individual actions across a large, geographically dispersed population with enough money and power that when we make a mistake, everyone gets hurt.

rbanffy 6y ago

The US is a very large and diverse place.

arcticbull 6y ago

The US is not particularly progressive on LGBT rights.

lawnchair_larry 6y ago
LGBT have equal rights in the US.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Not really. More than in some places to be sure. 1. Until June 16, 2020, that you could be fired for being gay or transgender. And that's not even a blanket ruling, as religious institutions in the US are basically exempt from the Civil Rights Act protections. 2. It's still illegal to use one bathroom or another as a transgender person depending on which state you're in. 3. Transgender people are not allowed in the US military. The list goes on, that's just kinda off the top of my head.
  - refurb 6y ago
    The US is more progressive than many European states.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_European_Un...
  - 0xy 6y ago
    Do you think it's beneficial for the US military to accept transgender people who, according to dozens of studies, have substantially higher rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation and other negative side effects? Additionally, some of the hormone blocking drugs can cause bone loss (presenting a real physical risk). Obviously, this has innumerable risks in a military environment from an objective standpoint. In fact, even post-transition, suicidal ideation is still orders of magnitude higher than average.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      This comment won’t look good on you in a few years, I’m sure, and it reminds me of the kind of things people used to say about accepting women into the armed forces. You pass basic training just the same so half your arguments are null right there. If you can’t pass basic training they don’t care what’s between your legs, you’re going home.

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago

Some groups in the US are very progressive on some issues. We still have larges swathes of the country that are backwards and like the torture that is mentioned in the article.