4 ms·

I'd argue that banning apps from non-free and non-open economies encourages a free and open internet by aligning incentives. Really, reciprocity (and the parad

I'd argue that banning apps from non-free and non-open economies encourages a free and open internet by aligning incentives. Really, reciprocity (and the paradox of intolerance) is an implicit expectation in many situations and we need to talk about how to deal with it.

wyattpeak 6y ago
I believe in freedom of speech. Should I stop people who don't believe in it from speaking to encourage alignment of incentives?
- lightgreen 6y ago
  This is a false analogy. China doesn't just not "believe" in free speech, it also bans, imprisons, tortures, spies and do other harmful things. Also states are not people. Also there are situations when there are reasons to limit free speech (like war). And so on.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    And the US would never torture people? We also have 21% of all people incarcerated in the world with only 4% of the population. The US doesn’t exactly have the moral high ground. As far as believing in free speech, isn’t the current administration trying to regulate tech because it doesn’t like what is being said on their platforms?
    - SomeJohn 6y ago
      What's your point? No matter how bad the US govt does, it doesn't mean we shall give a free pass to communist China to do whatever they want.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        So why is the administration also going after Twitter and FaceBook (unfair to conservatives) and Amazon (because Bezos owns WaPo) but not going after Sinclair (conservative company buying up local TV stations)?
        lightgreen 6y ago
        How exactly the administration is "going after" Twitter, Facebook and Amazon?
        scarface74 6y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-media-regulation-fcc-ftc-conservative-bias https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-medi... And just so it can’t be claimed that I’m only citing the MSM https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/facebook-targeted-in-possible-ftc-antitrust-case https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/facebook-targeted-in-...
        lightgreen 6y ago
        Thank you for the links! It's not clear what that regularion would do. If for example, it means that I could sue Twitter to force them unban me, I would consider that a good for all win-win regulation. The second one seems to be unrelated to free speech.
    - chairmanwow1 6y ago
      2020 was the year that convinced me that the American empire is drawing to a close. I guess it comes down to if I can swallow Chinese ideology when the US descends into chaos. Might be an easy decision to swap my blue passport for a red one.
    - lightgreen 6y ago
      > isn’t the current administration trying to regulate tech As far as I see, the largest danger to free speech in the US is company policy makers. YouTube, Twitter, Facebook ban all and everything without any suggestions from the government. And media like NY Times also do self-censorship without any government intervention.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        So the government should step in and make it “Fair and Balanced”? Oh wait, there is already a popular conservative outlet that has higher ratings than the “liberal news media”. There is no shortage of ways for conservatives to have their voice heard - Trump got elected despite the “liberal media” didn’t he? If the current government stepped in would they be more likely to support BLM or “Focus on the Family”?
        lightgreen 6y ago
        > So the government should step in and make it “Fair and Balanced”? Not it shouldn't. And it doesn't.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Not for lack of trying. https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-media-regulation-fcc-ftc-conservative-bias https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-medi...
        lightgreen 6y ago
        I replied you in another thread, not going to spam again here. Thanks again for the link!
    - refurb 6y ago
      I assume you only see the world in black and white and not shades of gray?
      - scarface74 6y ago
        What shade of gray should I see?
- ergocoder 6y ago
  Depending on whether the other group tries to undermine you. We surely like freedom of speech but still we want to silence, for example, anti-vaxxer.
- meowfly 6y ago
  If the question is framed, Should I stop someone trying to stop someone from exercising their freedom of speech? Definitely. This is the paradox of tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

wyattpeak 6y ago

I believe in freedom of speech. Should I stop people who don't believe in it from speaking to encourage alignment of incentives?

lightgreen 6y ago
This is a false analogy. China doesn't just not "believe" in free speech, it also bans, imprisons, tortures, spies and do other harmful things. Also states are not people. Also there are situations when there are reasons to limit free speech (like war). And so on.
- scarface74 6y ago
  And the US would never torture people? We also have 21% of all people incarcerated in the world with only 4% of the population. The US doesn’t exactly have the moral high ground. As far as believing in free speech, isn’t the current administration trying to regulate tech because it doesn’t like what is being said on their platforms?
  - SomeJohn 6y ago
    What's your point? No matter how bad the US govt does, it doesn't mean we shall give a free pass to communist China to do whatever they want.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      So why is the administration also going after Twitter and FaceBook (unfair to conservatives) and Amazon (because Bezos owns WaPo) but not going after Sinclair (conservative company buying up local TV stations)?
      - lightgreen 6y ago
        How exactly the administration is "going after" Twitter, Facebook and Amazon?
        scarface74 6y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-media-regulation-fcc-ftc-conservative-bias https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-medi... And just so it can’t be claimed that I’m only citing the MSM https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/facebook-targeted-in-possible-ftc-antitrust-case https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/facebook-targeted-in-...
        lightgreen 6y ago
        Thank you for the links! It's not clear what that regularion would do. If for example, it means that I could sue Twitter to force them unban me, I would consider that a good for all win-win regulation. The second one seems to be unrelated to free speech.
  - chairmanwow1 6y ago
    2020 was the year that convinced me that the American empire is drawing to a close. I guess it comes down to if I can swallow Chinese ideology when the US descends into chaos. Might be an easy decision to swap my blue passport for a red one.
  - lightgreen 6y ago
    > isn’t the current administration trying to regulate tech As far as I see, the largest danger to free speech in the US is company policy makers. YouTube, Twitter, Facebook ban all and everything without any suggestions from the government. And media like NY Times also do self-censorship without any government intervention.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      So the government should step in and make it “Fair and Balanced”? Oh wait, there is already a popular conservative outlet that has higher ratings than the “liberal news media”. There is no shortage of ways for conservatives to have their voice heard - Trump got elected despite the “liberal media” didn’t he? If the current government stepped in would they be more likely to support BLM or “Focus on the Family”?
      - lightgreen 6y ago
        > So the government should step in and make it “Fair and Balanced”? Not it shouldn't. And it doesn't.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Not for lack of trying. https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-media-regulation-fcc-ftc-conservative-bias https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798759/trump-social-medi...
        lightgreen 6y ago
        I replied you in another thread, not going to spam again here. Thanks again for the link!
  - refurb 6y ago
    I assume you only see the world in black and white and not shades of gray?
    - scarface74 6y ago
      What shade of gray should I see?
ergocoder 6y ago
Depending on whether the other group tries to undermine you. We surely like freedom of speech but still we want to silence, for example, anti-vaxxer.
meowfly 6y ago
If the question is framed, Should I stop someone trying to stop someone from exercising their freedom of speech? Definitely. This is the paradox of tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance