5 ms·

This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. Doesn't that make it a Bill of Attainder, which is unconstitutional? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder

This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. Doesn't that make it a Bill of Attainder, which is unconstitutional? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder A bill of attainder (also known as an act of attainder or writ of attainder or bill of penalties) is an act of a legislature declaring a person, or a group of persons, guilty of some crime, and punishing them, often without a trial.

peter303 6y ago
That part of the Constitution applies to Congress. They can not single out individuals (or individual corporations by Amendment 14) for punishment by legislation. Punishment is the role of a court trial.
dahfizz 6y ago
>is an act of a legislature Seems pretty clear that this does not apply to actions of the commerce department because they are not a legislature. They are not finding China / the apps guilty of a crime or punishing them for that crime. Even if Congress issued this ban, Congress has the explicit right to regulate commerce in the constitution. Trade embargo and sanctions are a very well established power of the government and does not include "declaring a person or group of people guilty of some crime".
- ardy42 6y ago
  Also this kind of action may intersect with constitutional foreign policy powers, which I think are far less familiar to regular people than other constitutional concepts from the Bill of Rights, etc.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    The Bill of Rights limits Constitutional foreign policy powers.
- CWuestefeld 6y ago
  the commerce department because they are not a legislature The Commerce Department operates as a proxy for Congress. They were set up to fully codify and implement the broader regulations enacted by Congress. Congress can't create a proxy that has the power to do things that the Congress itself doesn't have the power to do itself. If you want to pretend that this isn't being done under the aegis of Congress but rather the Executive, you're going to have to point to me the enumerated power that gives that branch the power to regulate commerce at all. They are not finding China / the apps guilty of a crime or punishing them for that crime. That's the same legal silliness that our law enforcement folks like to use to justify asset forfeiture. I was under the impression that the consensus around here is that it's BS.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    > The Commerce Department operates as a proxy for Congress. That's how the government works. Congress writes the laws and the executive branch executes the laws... That doesn't make the executive branch part of the legislative branch. "In the United States, the Department of Commerce is an executive department of the federal government concerned with promoting economic growth. This organization's main purpose is to create jobs, promote economic growth, encourage sustainable development and _block harmful trade practices of other nations_[1]". The department of commerce is literally a part of the executive branch. Of course they operate with the support of Congress, they are implementing the laws that Congress writes. That's how the government works. I don't know what point you're trying to make. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Commerce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_...
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Seems pretty clear that this does not apply to actions of the commerce department because they are not a legislature Right. The executive declaring guilt and imposing criminal punishment would just be a violation of the 5th Amendment due process clause. But this isn't declaring guilt and imposing punishment, it's, superficially at leaat, making a finding delegated to the President by Congress under law designed to regulate foreign trade for the purpose of protecting national security. Whether it comports with the detailed requirements of the authorizing law, whether the law as a whole or this specific action citing it violate the Constitution, and a number of other things may be reasonable questions, but this whole “bill of attainder” thing isn't on a number of levels.

peter303 6y ago

That part of the Constitution applies to Congress. They can not single out individuals (or individual corporations by Amendment 14) for punishment by legislation. Punishment is the role of a court trial.

dahfizz 6y ago

>is an act of a legislature Seems pretty clear that this does not apply to actions of the commerce department because they are not a legislature. They are not finding China / the apps guilty of a crime or punishing them for that crime. Even if Congress issued this ban, Congress has the explicit right to regulate commerce in the constitution. Trade embargo and sanctions are a very well established power of the government and does not include "declaring a person or group of people guilty of some crime".

ardy42 6y ago
Also this kind of action may intersect with constitutional foreign policy powers, which I think are far less familiar to regular people than other constitutional concepts from the Bill of Rights, etc.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  The Bill of Rights limits Constitutional foreign policy powers.
CWuestefeld 6y ago
the commerce department because they are not a legislature The Commerce Department operates as a proxy for Congress. They were set up to fully codify and implement the broader regulations enacted by Congress. Congress can't create a proxy that has the power to do things that the Congress itself doesn't have the power to do itself. If you want to pretend that this isn't being done under the aegis of Congress but rather the Executive, you're going to have to point to me the enumerated power that gives that branch the power to regulate commerce at all. They are not finding China / the apps guilty of a crime or punishing them for that crime. That's the same legal silliness that our law enforcement folks like to use to justify asset forfeiture. I was under the impression that the consensus around here is that it's BS.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  > The Commerce Department operates as a proxy for Congress. That's how the government works. Congress writes the laws and the executive branch executes the laws... That doesn't make the executive branch part of the legislative branch. "In the United States, the Department of Commerce is an executive department of the federal government concerned with promoting economic growth. This organization's main purpose is to create jobs, promote economic growth, encourage sustainable development and _block harmful trade practices of other nations_[1]". The department of commerce is literally a part of the executive branch. Of course they operate with the support of Congress, they are implementing the laws that Congress writes. That's how the government works. I don't know what point you're trying to make. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Commerce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_...
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Seems pretty clear that this does not apply to actions of the commerce department because they are not a legislature Right. The executive declaring guilt and imposing criminal punishment would just be a violation of the 5th Amendment due process clause. But this isn't declaring guilt and imposing punishment, it's, superficially at leaat, making a finding delegated to the President by Congress under law designed to regulate foreign trade for the purpose of protecting national security. Whether it comports with the detailed requirements of the authorizing law, whether the law as a whole or this specific action citing it violate the Constitution, and a number of other things may be reasonable questions, but this whole “bill of attainder” thing isn't on a number of levels.