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Calling the ban evil is a bit hyperbolic IMO, or maybe just incomplete. Phones with the software could easily be compromised. Users with the software can be pro

Calling the ban evil is a bit hyperbolic IMO, or maybe just incomplete. Phones with the software could easily be compromised. Users with the software can be profiled and tracked by the Chinese government pretty easily. The Chinese market bans most of America's social media software, and we're entering a trade war. All these are real, legitimate reasons to ban it.

shajznnckfke 6y ago
Retaliatory action in a trade war is probably a good idea, but the government may not have a legal tool to block the app for that reason. Hence the need to come up with a security threat. I’m skeptical of the security issue. If China wanted to inject spyware into American’s phones, there are so many apps to choose from, including lots of apps with millions of installs from no-name developers that could easily be compromised. If the US wants to protect citizens against these threats, they can have entities with infosec skills like the NSA or CISA work with Apple/Google to help detect threats in the app review process. My guess is that programs like this are already in place. Blocking just a couple of economically significant apps doesn’t seem like the way you’d go about pursuing that goal. It smells like a pretext for firing a few more shots in the trade war.
johnnyfaehell 6y ago
> Users with the software can be profiled and tracked by the Chinese government pretty easily. This is true of all apps coming out of the US with the NSA. Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? > and we're entering a trade war. The trade war started a while ago and I'm pretty sure China is winning it.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  > Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? The EU historically has depended on alliance and trade with the US. If that corrodes, then it would make sense for them to ban those at a certain point. I doubt we're there yet though. > The trade war started a while ago and I'm pretty sure China is winning it. That's irrelevant to what I said.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  From a user security standpoint, absolutely. But given that Europe relies on the US for military protection and trade, it’s unlikely to happen.
  - johnnyfaehell 6y ago
    > From a user security standpoint, absolutely. But given that Europe relies on the US for military protection and trade, it’s unlikely to happen. Military protection from whom? Russia? Russia is not in a place to attack Europe. And the US can barely protect themselves from Russia. Who do you think the US is protecting Europe from? Because the saviour of Europe seems to be Turkey and their willingness to keep all the refugees at their border instead of letting them flood into Europe. And I don't think Europe relies on the US for trade. They export more to Swizterland and the UK than they do the US.The US are a massive trading partner, but to say they rely on them is a flasehood. And let's remember the EU has banned American products before. Apple is the main contender for those bans.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  > Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? Is there a decent European alternative to Google and Facebook?
  - johnnyfaehell 6y ago
    If they banned them one would pop up real quick.
    - filoleg 6y ago
      You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB. I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook).
      - johnnyfaehell 6y ago
        > You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB. This sentence seems wrong on multiple levels. One it implies that Europe has been trying to build competitors and failing. Europe hasn't been, Europe has been trying to tax and control Google and Facebook. Which they've been doing rather well. It implies that Europe can't build these. Which is really messed up since both those companies have multiple offices in Europe. And that both those companies are largely built by non-us born people. It fails to understand or at least tries to frame away from the value a site like Facebook has, which is its user base. Even for it's users the value is the other users. Nearly everyone is on Facebook, even if they don't use it regularly. > I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook). Facebook got into its dominant position not because other countries didn't have viable competitors. It's that all the competitors were bought up by companies that ran them into the ground. Russia like China is a country that doesn't aim to be best friends with the US and has propaganda to boost it's own countries offerings, while actively trying to build its own offerings. Russia has more investment into its own services. The US also has lots of investments into offerings from the US. While Europe doesn't really match up. And there isn't even really a specific EU silicon valley competitor, London and Berlin both seem to be in the mix. My original point is, if Facebook and Google aren't there, there would be a replacement extremely quickly. The revenue these companies make show it's clear there is value in building these service and if the current providers don't exist other companies will want to take that revenue. The technical know-how of how to build these is there. The desire and a realistic chance of success of competing with established companies are not.
Bhilai 6y ago
> The Chinese market bans most of America's social media software, and we're entering a trade war. America is not China and should not frame its policies based on China's policies. While, I agree there is a need to retaliate but 'be like China' is hardly the way to do it.
- didibus 6y ago
  I agree that the US shouldn't justify acting like an autocratic state because China does so, but on the side of punishing an autocratic state there is precedent all over the place. The question we should ask is more how the US ever allowed China such exception in the first place, when Cuba for example has a full on total sanction against it, and so do many other autocratic states. So how did China get away without that for so long?
  - xnx 6y ago
    > So how did China get away without that for so long? Cheap labor for US manufacturing
    - fakedang 6y ago
      Unfortunately, Cuba values its citizens' lives more than China does, hence it turned out to be more profitable to keep manufacturing at America's biggest rival, all while Cuba gets stuck in middle income gap. Just an addendum.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  What way do you think is the right way to do it?
- echevil 6y ago
  No this is not "be like China", don't flatter yourself. When Facebook and Twitter was banned, there were imminent security threats as these platforms were used for organized crimes in China, and these companies simply ignores the requests from Chinese government to remove certain accounts. Google decided to not comply with local rules and left China by itself. US didn't even bother to find a plausible excuse
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
peacefulhat 6y ago
If US govt really cared about OS-level security vulnerabilities from malicious apps, a better strategy would be to require Apple, Google, and Microsoft to make their OS 100% source-available (non-duplication) and encourage serious industry criticism of their codebase. Current strategy of selectively banning Chinese apps and products is just bullshit.
scarmig 6y ago
No. It is evil, just as the Chinese bans on Facebook etc are evil. There is no real, legitimate reason to ban any software meant for communication. Payments I accept, but general communication should not under any circumstances. Just because some people want to turn the US into a mini PRC doesn't mean we have to embrace their noxious, evil value system.
- chrchang523 6y ago
  Nobody is seriously proposing that the US ban successful Indian companies, or that India ban successful US companies (the pushback against Free Basics did not rise to anywhere near that level). This is strictly about global retaliation against PRC Internet policy that is practically forced by geopolitical game theory at this point.

shajznnckfke 6y ago

Retaliatory action in a trade war is probably a good idea, but the government may not have a legal tool to block the app for that reason. Hence the need to come up with a security threat. I’m skeptical of the security issue. If China wanted to inject spyware into American’s phones, there are so many apps to choose from, including lots of apps with millions of installs from no-name developers that could easily be compromised. If the US wants to protect citizens against these threats, they can have entities with infosec skills like the NSA or CISA work with Apple/Google to help detect threats in the app review process. My guess is that programs like this are already in place. Blocking just a couple of economically significant apps doesn’t seem like the way you’d go about pursuing that goal. It smells like a pretext for firing a few more shots in the trade war.

johnnyfaehell 6y ago

> Users with the software can be profiled and tracked by the Chinese government pretty easily. This is true of all apps coming out of the US with the NSA. Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? > and we're entering a trade war. The trade war started a while ago and I'm pretty sure China is winning it.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
> Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? The EU historically has depended on alliance and trade with the US. If that corrodes, then it would make sense for them to ban those at a certain point. I doubt we're there yet though. > The trade war started a while ago and I'm pretty sure China is winning it. That's irrelevant to what I said.
claudeganon 6y ago
From a user security standpoint, absolutely. But given that Europe relies on the US for military protection and trade, it’s unlikely to happen.
- johnnyfaehell 6y ago
  > From a user security standpoint, absolutely. But given that Europe relies on the US for military protection and trade, it’s unlikely to happen. Military protection from whom? Russia? Russia is not in a place to attack Europe. And the US can barely protect themselves from Russia. Who do you think the US is protecting Europe from? Because the saviour of Europe seems to be Turkey and their willingness to keep all the refugees at their border instead of letting them flood into Europe. And I don't think Europe relies on the US for trade. They export more to Swizterland and the UK than they do the US.The US are a massive trading partner, but to say they rely on them is a flasehood. And let's remember the EU has banned American products before. Apple is the main contender for those bans.
AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
> Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? Is there a decent European alternative to Google and Facebook?
- johnnyfaehell 6y ago
  If they banned them one would pop up real quick.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB. I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook).
    - johnnyfaehell 6y ago
      > You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB. This sentence seems wrong on multiple levels. One it implies that Europe has been trying to build competitors and failing. Europe hasn't been, Europe has been trying to tax and control Google and Facebook. Which they've been doing rather well. It implies that Europe can't build these. Which is really messed up since both those companies have multiple offices in Europe. And that both those companies are largely built by non-us born people. It fails to understand or at least tries to frame away from the value a site like Facebook has, which is its user base. Even for it's users the value is the other users. Nearly everyone is on Facebook, even if they don't use it regularly. > I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook). Facebook got into its dominant position not because other countries didn't have viable competitors. It's that all the competitors were bought up by companies that ran them into the ground. Russia like China is a country that doesn't aim to be best friends with the US and has propaganda to boost it's own countries offerings, while actively trying to build its own offerings. Russia has more investment into its own services. The US also has lots of investments into offerings from the US. While Europe doesn't really match up. And there isn't even really a specific EU silicon valley competitor, London and Berlin both seem to be in the mix. My original point is, if Facebook and Google aren't there, there would be a replacement extremely quickly. The revenue these companies make show it's clear there is value in building these service and if the current providers don't exist other companies will want to take that revenue. The technical know-how of how to build these is there. The desire and a realistic chance of success of competing with established companies are not.

Bhilai 6y ago

> The Chinese market bans most of America's social media software, and we're entering a trade war. America is not China and should not frame its policies based on China's policies. While, I agree there is a need to retaliate but 'be like China' is hardly the way to do it.

didibus 6y ago
I agree that the US shouldn't justify acting like an autocratic state because China does so, but on the side of punishing an autocratic state there is precedent all over the place. The question we should ask is more how the US ever allowed China such exception in the first place, when Cuba for example has a full on total sanction against it, and so do many other autocratic states. So how did China get away without that for so long?
- xnx 6y ago
  > So how did China get away without that for so long? Cheap labor for US manufacturing
  - fakedang 6y ago
    Unfortunately, Cuba values its citizens' lives more than China does, hence it turned out to be more profitable to keep manufacturing at America's biggest rival, all while Cuba gets stuck in middle income gap. Just an addendum.
mdorazio 6y ago
What way do you think is the right way to do it?
echevil 6y ago
No this is not "be like China", don't flatter yourself. When Facebook and Twitter was banned, there were imminent security threats as these platforms were used for organized crimes in China, and these companies simply ignores the requests from Chinese government to remove certain accounts. Google decided to not comply with local rules and left China by itself. US didn't even bother to find a plausible excuse

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

peacefulhat 6y ago

If US govt really cared about OS-level security vulnerabilities from malicious apps, a better strategy would be to require Apple, Google, and Microsoft to make their OS 100% source-available (non-duplication) and encourage serious industry criticism of their codebase. Current strategy of selectively banning Chinese apps and products is just bullshit.

scarmig 6y ago

No. It is evil, just as the Chinese bans on Facebook etc are evil. There is no real, legitimate reason to ban any software meant for communication. Payments I accept, but general communication should not under any circumstances. Just because some people want to turn the US into a mini PRC doesn't mean we have to embrace their noxious, evil value system.

chrchang523 6y ago
Nobody is seriously proposing that the US ban successful Indian companies, or that India ban successful US companies (the pushback against Free Basics did not rise to anywhere near that level). This is strictly about global retaliation against PRC Internet policy that is practically forced by geopolitical game theory at this point.