5 ms·

Bring it on. If Arm is the future of desktop computing, it'll need a competitor.

klelatti 6y ago
Indeed, plus a viable competitor is the best way to ensure Nvidia is a reasonable steward of the Arm ecosystem.
mhh__ 6y ago
The likelihood of ARM sailing off into the distance and x86 disappearing is very slim. It's worth keeping in mind that they have more in common than you might think (i.e. RISC and CISC don't mean a huge amount any more when the old x86 instructions aren't used any more and ARM had/has a JavaScript instruction)
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  So if RISC-V adopts WASM would that give it an interesting edge? I'm not a hardware guy, all software, but definitely would love to see a little more diversity in consumer grade hardware.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    You could standardize a WASM translator into any ISA (or a direct implementation hypothetically), but it wouldn't be particularly useful because WASM is designed to be nice (safe) to be run in the browser in a JIT environment. If you want diversity, and an introduction to truly Alien CPU designs I recommend taking a look at the Mill.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- nsajko 6y ago
  x86 has a quite variable instruction size, up to 15 bytes. So an x86 decoder will be more complicated than an ARM or RISC-V decoder. I'm pretty sure that means that designing performant IP is more difficult engineering-wise for x86.
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    No doubt, but it is already worked out. And it turns out to take up a remarkably small area of the die. So, unless it actually slows down execution, it is a small tax that is overwhelmed by benefits of volume production.
- aiilns 6y ago
  Sorry for going off topic, but your comment confuses me. Doesn't "sail off into the distance" mean to disappear? But you're saying the opposite in your comment? My reasonibg being that when a ship sails off into the distance it disappears from view.
  - athriren 6y ago
    You read it right. I think they are saying it is unlikely ARM or x86 disappear, and that these instruction sets share some unexpected commonalities. They are not otherwise comparing/contrasting x86 and ARM, they are basically evaluating if either one seems likely to disappear and answering in their opinion: “no”.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    As in sailing off leaving x86 behind
- brucehoult 6y ago
  "ARM has a Javascript instruction" is just misinformed. They have always had the FCVTZS instruction which converts a floating point number to an integer (just as every instruction set has). If the floating point number is too large to fit in an integer then the bottom 32 bits are returned. The new(ish) FJCVTZS does exactly the same operation except that if the floating point number it too large then the largest integer is always returned. The implementation complexity difference is just about zero. It just so happens that the new instruction fits what JavaScript wants while the old one fits what C wants. There is certainly nothing non-RISC about FJCVTZS. It's a perfectly simple instruction.
mhh__ 6y ago
Speaking of competition, I was reading the Mill news board and apparently they were planning on taking a step up this summer but COVID meant they couldn't do it. (But they are still ticking along)
- pabs3 6y ago
  Sadly the Mill is by no means an open ISA, mostly because of all the patents they are filing.
  - mtsr 6y ago
    In the current legal environment exported by the US, it might be better to have licensed patented technology. Otherwise one leaves opportunity for trolls to patent and sue companies in that space.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    Isn't this the point of the Open Innovation Network?

Indeed, plus a viable competitor is the best way to ensure Nvidia is a reasonable steward of the Arm ecosystem.

The likelihood of ARM sailing off into the distance and x86 disappearing is very slim. It's worth keeping in mind that they have more in common than you might think (i.e. RISC and CISC don't mean a huge amount any more when the old x86 instructions aren't used any more and ARM had/has a JavaScript instruction)

giancarlostoro 6y ago
So if RISC-V adopts WASM would that give it an interesting edge? I'm not a hardware guy, all software, but definitely would love to see a little more diversity in consumer grade hardware.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  You could standardize a WASM translator into any ISA (or a direct implementation hypothetically), but it wouldn't be particularly useful because WASM is designed to be nice (safe) to be run in the browser in a JIT environment. If you want diversity, and an introduction to truly Alien CPU designs I recommend taking a look at the Mill.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
nsajko 6y ago
x86 has a quite variable instruction size, up to 15 bytes. So an x86 decoder will be more complicated than an ARM or RISC-V decoder. I'm pretty sure that means that designing performant IP is more difficult engineering-wise for x86.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  No doubt, but it is already worked out. And it turns out to take up a remarkably small area of the die. So, unless it actually slows down execution, it is a small tax that is overwhelmed by benefits of volume production.
aiilns 6y ago
Sorry for going off topic, but your comment confuses me. Doesn't "sail off into the distance" mean to disappear? But you're saying the opposite in your comment? My reasonibg being that when a ship sails off into the distance it disappears from view.
- athriren 6y ago
  You read it right. I think they are saying it is unlikely ARM or x86 disappear, and that these instruction sets share some unexpected commonalities. They are not otherwise comparing/contrasting x86 and ARM, they are basically evaluating if either one seems likely to disappear and answering in their opinion: “no”.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  As in sailing off leaving x86 behind
brucehoult 6y ago
"ARM has a Javascript instruction" is just misinformed. They have always had the FCVTZS instruction which converts a floating point number to an integer (just as every instruction set has). If the floating point number is too large to fit in an integer then the bottom 32 bits are returned. The new(ish) FJCVTZS does exactly the same operation except that if the floating point number it too large then the largest integer is always returned. The implementation complexity difference is just about zero. It just so happens that the new instruction fits what JavaScript wants while the old one fits what C wants. There is certainly nothing non-RISC about FJCVTZS. It's a perfectly simple instruction.

mhh__ 6y ago

Speaking of competition, I was reading the Mill news board and apparently they were planning on taking a step up this summer but COVID meant they couldn't do it. (But they are still ticking along)

pabs3 6y ago
Sadly the Mill is by no means an open ISA, mostly because of all the patents they are filing.
- mtsr 6y ago
  In the current legal environment exported by the US, it might be better to have licensed patented technology. Otherwise one leaves opportunity for trolls to patent and sue companies in that space.
- happymellon 6y ago
  Isn't this the point of the Open Innovation Network?