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> It feels like Epic waived a red cloth and Apple just ran full speed into it. I see the current mess completely of Apple's own doing. What kind of repercussio

> It feels like Epic waived a red cloth and Apple just ran full speed into it. I see the current mess completely of Apple's own doing. What kind of repercussions could it have? I'm sure it's not great PR, but is it really likely this damages Apple in the long run? I'd presume Epic could challenge the legality of these actions in a lawsuit but, other than that, isn't Epic totally at Apple's mercy?

airza 6y ago
They are already challenging them in a lawsuit, right?
monadic2 6y ago
> I'm sure it's not great PR, but is it really likely this damages Apple in the long run? Why would you base your income on their platform knowing how they treat their users and developers? Seems pretty harebrained to me. There's many ways to sell software which don't involve paying a third party for your own work.
- oivey 6y ago
  Doesn’t most mobile app revenue come from iOS? That’s not an accident, and a lot of it arguably has to do with the walled garden.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Or could it be that people who both have and are willing to spend money buy Apple devices?
    - oivey 6y ago
      Sure, that’s probably the most major reason. Having an app store that requires apps to meet certain quality standards, respect privacy, and not contain malware is part of why people are willing to pay a premium for iPhones. It goes without saying there are other factors, too, like the high quality hardware and integration with cool accessories. Again, it’s not an accident that iOS apps are more profitable than Android apps. Apple’s overall ecosystem is designed to attract people who are willing to pay for good products.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Yes and many on HN want Apple to be “broken up” so the iOS ecosystem is just as bad as Androids....
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  > Why would you base your income on their platform knowing how they treat their users and developers? For the same reason everyone does: because if you don't end up in their crosshairs, you can make a lot of cash. That's been the reason ever since the days the complaint was "Apple liked my Mac app so much they built their own version and never compensated me."
  - monadic2 6y ago
    Oh fun, I love the prospect of gambling away my career.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      Anyone working at a startup company is doing that. Startups don't seem to lack for hires in general.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      What part of your career and income is a guaranteed sure thing, and what part is subject to some level of risk? What level of risk qualifies as “gambling”?
heavyset_go 6y ago
> but is it really likely this damages Apple in the long run? Of course it does. People like myself see the overreach Apple has taken with their platforms and hardware, and as a result, I'm not going to rest the viability of my business on Apple's whims.
- hilbertseries 6y ago
  The iPhone market is still huge and valuable. It’s too much money to leave on the table if you’re an app developer. You’re still going to build an IPhone app you’re just going to be more careful about it.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    The endless HN swing between: - iOS is too important for developers to abandon, so it's not like people are actually going to stop developing games for it. and - Antitrust claims aren't valid against iOS because developers can just choose to move to Android instead. ---- All that aside, the important thing here is that Apple is now retaliating on the Mac, not just on iPhone. I was already never going to waste my time building mobile games, in part because of iOS. So anything Apple does there doesn't really change the status quo. But I'm increasingly looking at the current situation and saying, "does it make more sense for my future games to just be Windows/Linux?" And while they do arguably have a big enough hold on the mobile market to force mobile devs to support iOS, Apple definitely does not have a big enough hold on the desktop gaming market to force developers to target Mac. They could go from being pretty under-represented as a gaming platform back to being completely unrepresented if they're not careful. If AAA studios, special effects teams, and producers have to choose between abandoning Unreal Engine or abandoning Mac, I don't think it's safe to assume they're going to choose to abandon Unreal Engine. There are massive pipelines invested into this thing, for better or worse.
    - codyb 6y ago
      Hmm, interesting. There's two sorts of monopolies here right? From the consumer side you can move from iOS to Android and vice versa relatively easily. But from the developer side, despite having access to similar numbers of US consumers the Apple market is far more profitable and can't be abandoned. Are monopolies measured from the perspective of third parties like that? The developers being the third parties here.
newbie578 6y ago
While I know it is not significant, me personally as a small developer am no longer going to use any Apple services which can leave me "exposed" and "surrender" my self to the Almighty Apple. Mostly, and I know I am not alone, that whole fiasco where Apple threatened to shut down Epic users who used Sign-In with Apple (regardless of which side is lying) has completely turned me 180 on that feature, where I am now actively avoiding to implement Sign-In with Apple in my apps. I am quite aware that I am going to lose some users to that decision, I am more than willing to accept it, since that path is too dangerous for me to take after seeing how much power Apple has. I only hope that others will also follow in that decision. Also, I am just waiting patiently for the EU hammer to hit Apple swiftly, it would be about damn time.
- dwaite 6y ago
  > Mostly, and I know I am not alone, that whole fiasco where Apple threatened to shut down Epic users who used Sign-In with Apple (regardless of which side is lying) has completely turned me 180 on that feature, where I am now actively avoiding to implement Sign-In with Apple in my apps. Keep in mind that this is par for the course with social logins, because they are based on your company having a business agreement with Apple, Google, Facebook, etc - even if it looks like a simple EULA when you sign up, they have the ability to cancel your access, which effectively shuts down access by your customers into your service. SIWA is tied to the developer agreement, so Epic lost access to this when they lost everything else. It sounds like Apple actually gave them an extended (but still quite short) grace period after their developer account was deleted to migrate users off.
  - dwaite 6y ago
    To add on: It appears Apple has extended Epic's ability to use SiwA even with their developer account suspended.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    > SIWA is tied to the developer agreement, so Epic lost access to this when they lost everything else. It sounds like Apple actually gave them an extended (but still quite short) grace period after their developer account was deleted to migrate users off. With my end user hat on, I respectfully disagree. SIWA is tied to my Apple ID, and is my account. Apple has demonstrated it will unilaterally revoke my login on services that has nothing to do with it, thereby significantly reducing the value of SIWA and significantly increasing the risk of using it. I never used social logins before SIWA due to privacy concerns. I now can’t use SIWA either, and need to migrate every service I have using it back to my email. Thanks Apple. You continue to be the abusive partner, taking my money and telling me I should be grateful that you’re not as bad as the other option, all the while restricting and controlling what I’m allowed to do.
hrktb 6y ago
> Epic could challenge the legality of these actions It’s not hypothetical anymore. Also, Epic now doesn’t have to prove that Apple is doing everything to damage their business, it has become a fact with quantifiable effects. Apple won’t be able to say their contract is just standard legalese that they didn’t intend to enforce. Perhaps they’ll get away with everything they’re doing, but that looks like a lot of rope to get hanged high.
netsharc 6y ago
I wonder how many kids have Macs due to their parents, and played Fortnite until this happened. Imagine them looking to buy their first computer in the future, and weighing the pros and cons of the available platforms..

airza 6y ago

They are already challenging them in a lawsuit, right?

monadic2 6y ago

> I'm sure it's not great PR, but is it really likely this damages Apple in the long run? Why would you base your income on their platform knowing how they treat their users and developers? Seems pretty harebrained to me. There's many ways to sell software which don't involve paying a third party for your own work.

oivey 6y ago
Doesn’t most mobile app revenue come from iOS? That’s not an accident, and a lot of it arguably has to do with the walled garden.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Or could it be that people who both have and are willing to spend money buy Apple devices?
  - oivey 6y ago
    Sure, that’s probably the most major reason. Having an app store that requires apps to meet certain quality standards, respect privacy, and not contain malware is part of why people are willing to pay a premium for iPhones. It goes without saying there are other factors, too, like the high quality hardware and integration with cool accessories. Again, it’s not an accident that iOS apps are more profitable than Android apps. Apple’s overall ecosystem is designed to attract people who are willing to pay for good products.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Yes and many on HN want Apple to be “broken up” so the iOS ecosystem is just as bad as Androids....
shadowgovt 6y ago
> Why would you base your income on their platform knowing how they treat their users and developers? For the same reason everyone does: because if you don't end up in their crosshairs, you can make a lot of cash. That's been the reason ever since the days the complaint was "Apple liked my Mac app so much they built their own version and never compensated me."
- monadic2 6y ago
  Oh fun, I love the prospect of gambling away my career.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    Anyone working at a startup company is doing that. Startups don't seem to lack for hires in general.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    What part of your career and income is a guaranteed sure thing, and what part is subject to some level of risk? What level of risk qualifies as “gambling”?

heavyset_go 6y ago

> but is it really likely this damages Apple in the long run? Of course it does. People like myself see the overreach Apple has taken with their platforms and hardware, and as a result, I'm not going to rest the viability of my business on Apple's whims.

hilbertseries 6y ago
The iPhone market is still huge and valuable. It’s too much money to leave on the table if you’re an app developer. You’re still going to build an IPhone app you’re just going to be more careful about it.
- danShumway 6y ago
  The endless HN swing between: - iOS is too important for developers to abandon, so it's not like people are actually going to stop developing games for it. and - Antitrust claims aren't valid against iOS because developers can just choose to move to Android instead. ---- All that aside, the important thing here is that Apple is now retaliating on the Mac, not just on iPhone. I was already never going to waste my time building mobile games, in part because of iOS. So anything Apple does there doesn't really change the status quo. But I'm increasingly looking at the current situation and saying, "does it make more sense for my future games to just be Windows/Linux?" And while they do arguably have a big enough hold on the mobile market to force mobile devs to support iOS, Apple definitely does not have a big enough hold on the desktop gaming market to force developers to target Mac. They could go from being pretty under-represented as a gaming platform back to being completely unrepresented if they're not careful. If AAA studios, special effects teams, and producers have to choose between abandoning Unreal Engine or abandoning Mac, I don't think it's safe to assume they're going to choose to abandon Unreal Engine. There are massive pipelines invested into this thing, for better or worse.
  - codyb 6y ago
    Hmm, interesting. There's two sorts of monopolies here right? From the consumer side you can move from iOS to Android and vice versa relatively easily. But from the developer side, despite having access to similar numbers of US consumers the Apple market is far more profitable and can't be abandoned. Are monopolies measured from the perspective of third parties like that? The developers being the third parties here.

newbie578 6y ago

While I know it is not significant, me personally as a small developer am no longer going to use any Apple services which can leave me "exposed" and "surrender" my self to the Almighty Apple. Mostly, and I know I am not alone, that whole fiasco where Apple threatened to shut down Epic users who used Sign-In with Apple (regardless of which side is lying) has completely turned me 180 on that feature, where I am now actively avoiding to implement Sign-In with Apple in my apps. I am quite aware that I am going to lose some users to that decision, I am more than willing to accept it, since that path is too dangerous for me to take after seeing how much power Apple has. I only hope that others will also follow in that decision. Also, I am just waiting patiently for the EU hammer to hit Apple swiftly, it would be about damn time.

dwaite 6y ago
> Mostly, and I know I am not alone, that whole fiasco where Apple threatened to shut down Epic users who used Sign-In with Apple (regardless of which side is lying) has completely turned me 180 on that feature, where I am now actively avoiding to implement Sign-In with Apple in my apps. Keep in mind that this is par for the course with social logins, because they are based on your company having a business agreement with Apple, Google, Facebook, etc - even if it looks like a simple EULA when you sign up, they have the ability to cancel your access, which effectively shuts down access by your customers into your service. SIWA is tied to the developer agreement, so Epic lost access to this when they lost everything else. It sounds like Apple actually gave them an extended (but still quite short) grace period after their developer account was deleted to migrate users off.
- dwaite 6y ago
  To add on: It appears Apple has extended Epic's ability to use SiwA even with their developer account suspended.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  > SIWA is tied to the developer agreement, so Epic lost access to this when they lost everything else. It sounds like Apple actually gave them an extended (but still quite short) grace period after their developer account was deleted to migrate users off. With my end user hat on, I respectfully disagree. SIWA is tied to my Apple ID, and is my account. Apple has demonstrated it will unilaterally revoke my login on services that has nothing to do with it, thereby significantly reducing the value of SIWA and significantly increasing the risk of using it. I never used social logins before SIWA due to privacy concerns. I now can’t use SIWA either, and need to migrate every service I have using it back to my email. Thanks Apple. You continue to be the abusive partner, taking my money and telling me I should be grateful that you’re not as bad as the other option, all the while restricting and controlling what I’m allowed to do.

hrktb 6y ago

> Epic could challenge the legality of these actions It’s not hypothetical anymore. Also, Epic now doesn’t have to prove that Apple is doing everything to damage their business, it has become a fact with quantifiable effects. Apple won’t be able to say their contract is just standard legalese that they didn’t intend to enforce. Perhaps they’ll get away with everything they’re doing, but that looks like a lot of rope to get hanged high.

netsharc 6y ago

I wonder how many kids have Macs due to their parents, and played Fortnite until this happened. Imagine them looking to buy their first computer in the future, and weighing the pros and cons of the available platforms..