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I don't know why this was downvoted, maybe people don't realize why this is so serious? Sign in with Apple doesn't give you a user's email, it uses randomized

I don't know why this was downvoted, maybe people don't realize why this is so serious? Sign in with Apple doesn't give you a user's email, it uses randomized forwarding addresses. So if Apple blocks you from it, those users can never log in again, and you can never recover the accounts that used it There's no way to send a link saying "Hey we got blocked from Apple, log in here". That's it, those user accounts are dead. Combine that with a requirement that you use this log in system? Complete and utter insanity that Apple would try and use that to threaten a company.

ptero 6y ago
I do not know why you are being downvoted (I upvoted this not because I agree with your view, but because I see your point as the one that deserves to be argued). I agree that the ability to reach user directly is a valuable feature to a developer. And your request sounds completely fine. But it is wide open to abuse. Now, that said, as a user I would be very unhappy if Apple started blasting my AppleID email to every app I decided to try. That would generate a ton of spam and probably make that email unusable for anything else. If a developer wants direct access to the user nothing prevents them from asking the user in an app (where the user has a chance to say "Hell, no!"). My 2c.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  You're inferring a request that isn't there though, I'm not saying Apple should send any emails without asking I'm saying Apple should not force anyone to implement it. Some apps just work even if users lose accounts easily. They tend to not push for logins immediately. Sign-in with Apple is a great match for them. But in others, if the user doesn't want to share their email, the dev wants that to be treated as "the user isn't logged in", "I haven't justified logging in". The dev wants to demonstrate enough value to justify you being logged in with an email. Sign-in with Apple is a terrible match for them creates a limbo state where users have accounts, but not full accounts. In those apps it's very awkward to handle in not just the app itself, but real world customer lifecycle events, like support - Not to mention other logins (and OAuth in general) already handle this, you ask permission to access email with an "email" scope and the user is clearly made aware they're sharing their email address And I mean it, the UX is not some shady misleading thing, it's in the best interests of Google and Facebook that your email doesn't become spam either.
  - ptero 6y ago
    Good points and agree that "sign-in with Apple" is not a great match in many cases. And the developer is fighting an uphill battle against Apple who wants to be the required middleman in the relationship of the developer and the user.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    And there are many services that will not allow you to create an account if you refuse to allow your email address to be shared. I believe one of those services is Zillow.
sbuk 6y ago
> Combine that with a requirement that you use this log in system? They only require Sign in with Apple if third-party or social logins are offered. 4.8 Sign in with Apple Apps that use a third-party or social login service (such as Facebook Login, Google Sign-In, Sign in with Twitter, Sign In with LinkedIn, Login with Amazon, or WeChat Login) to set up or authenticate the user’s primary account with the app must also offer Sign in with Apple as an equivalent option. A user’s primary account is the account they establish with your app for the purposes of identifying themselves, signing in, and accessing your features and associated services. Sign in with Apple is not required if: - Your app exclusively uses your company’s own account setup and sign-in systems. - Your app is an education, enterprise, or business app that requires the user to sign in with an existing education or enterprise account. - Your app uses a government or industry-backed citizen identification system or electronic ID to authenticate users. - Your app is a client for a specific third-party service and users are required to sign in to their mail, social media, or other third-party account directly to access their content. From: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sign-in-with-apple https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sig...
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  Edit: Everyone trying to turn this into a users vs devs thing. Come of it. Apple could have made a social media login that respects privacy. Put it out into the world. Advertise "Apple's social media login is the only one that keeps your privates private". Had developers adopt it and it becomes a new de-facto login besides Google and Facebook. It's great for users, good for devs, not as easy to abuse (Apps could watch what Apple is doing right now with Epic and back out instead of wringing their hands they might be next for example...) ... Instead they force developers to implement a new feature with deep integration into app's backends, customer lifecycles, and an implicit change on all platforms they serve. Like seriously people: > The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. I support user privacy, and I don't think what they did is ok. How is that so hard to grasp? Being anti-"How Sign in with Apple is mandatory" not being anti-privacy, it's not even being anti-"Sign in with randomized emails" in a vaccum. The problem is _forcing that choice on others_. - Do you actually imagine it makes it less ridiculous, or do you not realize how prevalent social logins are not just in apps, but on the internet in general? Social logins are the de-facto login method on mobile Apple gets to just make their own social login and ignore concepts like risks in implementation to devs and just boop now everyone has to use it. It's almost comical! They played the "this is a privacy deal" card which is cool, but then the idea they actually forced a new social login option apps based on the platform they run on... absolute insanity. It's like Apple is just begging for scrutiny these days, they really do think they've become Microsoft in the 90s
patmorgan23 6y ago
Sounds like ever service that uses Sign-in with Apple so require their users to input an email, which kinda defeats the purpose of sign-in with apple.

ptero 6y ago

I do not know why you are being downvoted (I upvoted this not because I agree with your view, but because I see your point as the one that deserves to be argued). I agree that the ability to reach user directly is a valuable feature to a developer. And your request sounds completely fine. But it is wide open to abuse. Now, that said, as a user I would be very unhappy if Apple started blasting my AppleID email to every app I decided to try. That would generate a ton of spam and probably make that email unusable for anything else. If a developer wants direct access to the user nothing prevents them from asking the user in an app (where the user has a chance to say "Hell, no!"). My 2c.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
BoorishBears 6y ago
You're inferring a request that isn't there though, I'm not saying Apple should send any emails without asking I'm saying Apple should not force anyone to implement it. Some apps just work even if users lose accounts easily. They tend to not push for logins immediately. Sign-in with Apple is a great match for them. But in others, if the user doesn't want to share their email, the dev wants that to be treated as "the user isn't logged in", "I haven't justified logging in". The dev wants to demonstrate enough value to justify you being logged in with an email. Sign-in with Apple is a terrible match for them creates a limbo state where users have accounts, but not full accounts. In those apps it's very awkward to handle in not just the app itself, but real world customer lifecycle events, like support - Not to mention other logins (and OAuth in general) already handle this, you ask permission to access email with an "email" scope and the user is clearly made aware they're sharing their email address And I mean it, the UX is not some shady misleading thing, it's in the best interests of Google and Facebook that your email doesn't become spam either.
- ptero 6y ago
  Good points and agree that "sign-in with Apple" is not a great match in many cases. And the developer is fighting an uphill battle against Apple who wants to be the required middleman in the relationship of the developer and the user.
- scarface74 6y ago
  And there are many services that will not allow you to create an account if you refuse to allow your email address to be shared. I believe one of those services is Zillow.

sbuk 6y ago

> Combine that with a requirement that you use this log in system? They only require Sign in with Apple if third-party or social logins are offered. 4.8 Sign in with Apple Apps that use a third-party or social login service (such as Facebook Login, Google Sign-In, Sign in with Twitter, Sign In with LinkedIn, Login with Amazon, or WeChat Login) to set up or authenticate the user’s primary account with the app must also offer Sign in with Apple as an equivalent option. A user’s primary account is the account they establish with your app for the purposes of identifying themselves, signing in, and accessing your features and associated services. Sign in with Apple is not required if: - Your app exclusively uses your company’s own account setup and sign-in systems. - Your app is an education, enterprise, or business app that requires the user to sign in with an existing education or enterprise account. - Your app uses a government or industry-backed citizen identification system or electronic ID to authenticate users. - Your app is a client for a specific third-party service and users are required to sign in to their mail, social media, or other third-party account directly to access their content. From: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sign-in-with-apple https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sig...

BoorishBears 6y ago
Edit: Everyone trying to turn this into a users vs devs thing. Come of it. Apple could have made a social media login that respects privacy. Put it out into the world. Advertise "Apple's social media login is the only one that keeps your privates private". Had developers adopt it and it becomes a new de-facto login besides Google and Facebook. It's great for users, good for devs, not as easy to abuse (Apps could watch what Apple is doing right now with Epic and back out instead of wringing their hands they might be next for example...) ... Instead they force developers to implement a new feature with deep integration into app's backends, customer lifecycles, and an implicit change on all platforms they serve. Like seriously people: > The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. I support user privacy, and I don't think what they did is ok. How is that so hard to grasp? Being anti-"How Sign in with Apple is mandatory" not being anti-privacy, it's not even being anti-"Sign in with randomized emails" in a vaccum. The problem is _forcing that choice on others_. - Do you actually imagine it makes it less ridiculous, or do you not realize how prevalent social logins are not just in apps, but on the internet in general? Social logins are the de-facto login method on mobile Apple gets to just make their own social login and ignore concepts like risks in implementation to devs and just boop now everyone has to use it. It's almost comical! They played the "this is a privacy deal" card which is cool, but then the idea they actually forced a new social login option apps based on the platform they run on... absolute insanity. It's like Apple is just begging for scrutiny these days, they really do think they've become Microsoft in the 90s

patmorgan23 6y ago

Sounds like ever service that uses Sign-in with Apple so require their users to input an email, which kinda defeats the purpose of sign-in with apple.