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Regarding 2) ...evidently focusing on their existing userbase isn't viable. So often these comments like "they are ignoring their user base" and "why won't the

Regarding 2) ...evidently focusing on their existing userbase isn't viable. So often these comments like "they are ignoring their user base" and "why won't they let us donate to firefox" miss the point (even if true / beneficial)...they don't want to double down on their existing user base; they want to expand their userbase to go with their mission of bringing more trust to the web Firefox was the better extension platform for years, and that wasn't enough to entice users away from Google and Chrome. They are trying, and failing, to find a differentiator that will give market share. Trust, privacy, and security on the web so far hasn't got to consumers' hearts, and extensibility and donations are basically just pandering to those few users that remain.

rvba 6y ago
> evidently focusing on their existing userbase isn't viable. I disagree. First of all: their strategy to ignore the requests of existing users in order to focus on some potential new users doesn't work. Firefox lost around 10 percentage points of market share in last few years. Second of all: the whole "strategy" of alienating current user base in hope of finding new users is batshit insane. Browsers are a mature product: it is much easier to keep current users happy and grow organically. This is not some start-up that will come up with a killer feature - you evolve the product. You can scroll a bit up, even in this thread to see people complaining about the terrible user experience in last Firefox for Android roll out. Do you see a single person praising it? Long gone are the days when tech-savy users would recommend Firefox to their friends and family. Also, why did they even roll out a half baked product? Couldnt they fix it before rolling it out? As an user, at this point you might start to wonder if it is even worth it to update Firefox. How will the new patch break your workflow? Will some useful features be cut? It's not even about the bugs and the project seems to have them. People go to Chrome because it is stable. No batshit insane changes to UI or workflow. [and yes, I am aware that Chrome wants to kill the address bar to introduce "AMP" - what is a terrible thing for whole internet]
- davisoneee 6y ago
  To self quote, "Firefox was the better extension platform...and didn't entice users away". Firefox's share has been declining for years, and I wouldn't say it's become a significantly worse browser in that time. They aren't showing any signs of growing organically. They are trying to get away from Google, and for that, they need to grow their base and bring in much more revenue from users, or just accept being a small side player in the browser market. You mention tech-savy...but is 'tech savy' what the public wants, or needs? Firefox has always been the more tech-savvy browser I would say, and yet they are losing ground to Chrome. The tech-savy browser is the one that's trying to push the boundaries; they are trying to do more technical stuff, which gives more opportunity for problems, such as workflow breaking. I don't know if Firefox _can_ compete with Google, given how badly their market share is declining. I think a lot of that isn't even due to Firefox, it's in my view partly driven by Web Devs no longer caring about ensuring Firefox is supported, and also just that "Google" is the average users' doorway to the internet. I think it's also partly because the Chrome way just works for your average consumer...click the browser, search, job done. Again, the HN crowd seems to conflate 'what I want' and 'the reviews I see', and fail to really think about what _the market_ wants, or how the average consumer interacts in ways that may be wildly different than the way a current firefox user interacts. Chrome is stable because they don't really seem to do much from release to release, and that _works_ for the average user.
  - rvba 6y ago
    The loss of users happened when Chrome came out. At that time Firefox was eating tons of memory and getting buggy with more tabs open. Chrome was also marketed very aggressively by Google. Firefox partially removed those problems with later versions: it stopped eating so much RAM. Sadly after version 56 the "batshit insane" strategy started. It's like a set of terrible decision after terrible decision. (1) alienating users by killing extensions (2) constant changes to UI, workflow (3) 1 year later forgetting to sign extensions so everything stopped working (4) patching everything via strange side-channels that shouldn't exist (5) even more batshit insane changes to browser, killing extensions AGAIN and chaing extensions again If all those things simply did not happen and Firefox was simply maintained like a normal program, their unique selling point would be "our product is similar, but offers you your favorite extensions and also we don't spy on you". That would be their secure niche, from which they can expand and which they cannot lose. But they do everything they can to lose their users. > Chrome is stable because they don't really seem to do much from release to release, and that _works_ for the average user. What is the value add of constant shifts of Firefox? Definitely not security.

rvba 6y ago

> evidently focusing on their existing userbase isn't viable. I disagree. First of all: their strategy to ignore the requests of existing users in order to focus on some potential new users doesn't work. Firefox lost around 10 percentage points of market share in last few years. Second of all: the whole "strategy" of alienating current user base in hope of finding new users is batshit insane. Browsers are a mature product: it is much easier to keep current users happy and grow organically. This is not some start-up that will come up with a killer feature - you evolve the product. You can scroll a bit up, even in this thread to see people complaining about the terrible user experience in last Firefox for Android roll out. Do you see a single person praising it? Long gone are the days when tech-savy users would recommend Firefox to their friends and family. Also, why did they even roll out a half baked product? Couldnt they fix it before rolling it out? As an user, at this point you might start to wonder if it is even worth it to update Firefox. How will the new patch break your workflow? Will some useful features be cut? It's not even about the bugs and the project seems to have them. People go to Chrome because it is stable. No batshit insane changes to UI or workflow. [and yes, I am aware that Chrome wants to kill the address bar to introduce "AMP" - what is a terrible thing for whole internet]

davisoneee 6y ago
To self quote, "Firefox was the better extension platform...and didn't entice users away". Firefox's share has been declining for years, and I wouldn't say it's become a significantly worse browser in that time. They aren't showing any signs of growing organically. They are trying to get away from Google, and for that, they need to grow their base and bring in much more revenue from users, or just accept being a small side player in the browser market. You mention tech-savy...but is 'tech savy' what the public wants, or needs? Firefox has always been the more tech-savvy browser I would say, and yet they are losing ground to Chrome. The tech-savy browser is the one that's trying to push the boundaries; they are trying to do more technical stuff, which gives more opportunity for problems, such as workflow breaking. I don't know if Firefox _can_ compete with Google, given how badly their market share is declining. I think a lot of that isn't even due to Firefox, it's in my view partly driven by Web Devs no longer caring about ensuring Firefox is supported, and also just that "Google" is the average users' doorway to the internet. I think it's also partly because the Chrome way just works for your average consumer...click the browser, search, job done. Again, the HN crowd seems to conflate 'what I want' and 'the reviews I see', and fail to really think about what _the market_ wants, or how the average consumer interacts in ways that may be wildly different than the way a current firefox user interacts. Chrome is stable because they don't really seem to do much from release to release, and that _works_ for the average user.
- rvba 6y ago
  The loss of users happened when Chrome came out. At that time Firefox was eating tons of memory and getting buggy with more tabs open. Chrome was also marketed very aggressively by Google. Firefox partially removed those problems with later versions: it stopped eating so much RAM. Sadly after version 56 the "batshit insane" strategy started. It's like a set of terrible decision after terrible decision. (1) alienating users by killing extensions (2) constant changes to UI, workflow (3) 1 year later forgetting to sign extensions so everything stopped working (4) patching everything via strange side-channels that shouldn't exist (5) even more batshit insane changes to browser, killing extensions AGAIN and chaing extensions again If all those things simply did not happen and Firefox was simply maintained like a normal program, their unique selling point would be "our product is similar, but offers you your favorite extensions and also we don't spy on you". That would be their secure niche, from which they can expand and which they cannot lose. But they do everything they can to lose their users. > Chrome is stable because they don't really seem to do much from release to release, and that _works_ for the average user. What is the value add of constant shifts of Firefox? Definitely not security.