8 ms·

Unfortunately mainstream undercurrents of islamaphobia/orientalism have hijacked the english use of an arabic word "Sharia" and made it into a knee-jerk scare w

Unfortunately mainstream undercurrents of islamaphobia/orientalism have hijacked the english use of an arabic word "Sharia" and made it into a knee-jerk scare word. It seems weird to pronounce that you detest it in general since it's not a monolithic thing and is more of a general concept encompassing a law tradition informed by a moral/religious framework. https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/factsheet-sharia/ https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/factsheet-sharia/ https://ing.org/a-closer-look-at-sharia-in-the-united-states/ https://ing.org/a-closer-look-at-sharia-in-the-united-states...

pc86 6y ago
Is Sharia law not a religious authority ruling folks who do not belong to that religion? What exactly is Islamophobic about calling that out? The exchange between Bill Maher, Sam Harris, and Ben Affleck[0] is a great example of hamfisting Islamophobia into completely legitimate criticisms of Islam, Islamism, Sharia over secular society, etc. Not every criticism of Islam (and truthfully, the vast majority of criticisms of Islam) are not racist of Islamophobic. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60
- doesnotexist 6y ago
  There is little to no difference between what the article is describing, a halal certificate on some financial instruments and the Kosher or Halal stamps you see on food products at the grocery store. In this case there is a consumer demand for products labelled Halal and it is being met by a body deemed to hold legitimacy in determining compliance, how this becomes a discussion about defending the entirety of a broad concept like Sharia is perplexing.
  - pc86 6y ago
    Is a "halal certificate on some financial instruments" a relevant thing outside of Sharia law? This is a serious question. Are more moderate Muslims okay with interest, or is it pretty much across the board? I'm sure you can find some of any group okay with just about anything, I just mean in general. I'm not sure where on the spectrum of atheist to Islamist something like this falls. Right or wrong I have always associated refusal to use traditional banking a more hard-line Muslim belief.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      Don't you think it's weird to have such strong opinions about something you don't know much about?
      - pc86 6y ago
        I think it's weird to frame my honest questions as having strong opinions.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - bckygldstn 6y ago
    Scale makes a difference here. Kosher food isn't in large enough demand in the US to transform the entire agricultural industry, so non-adherents still have real choice. A closer example might be the MPAA (US film rating group). It's a voluntary certification, but it's become a de facto requirement such that the small, opaque, non-government group shapes the level of violence (high) and nudity (low) in all TV and films.
    - doesnotexist 6y ago
      Surely most people will continue to be able to find a bank that will lend them money under familiar terms of interest. I find it hard to believe or take seriously that an Indonesian body certifying financial instruments of debt as Halal is going to upend JP Morgan and the western banking system en masse.
    - davchana 6y ago
      Exactly, in my religion/culture eating Halaal is forbidden, because of 100s of years of wars with Muslim Rulers. Forcing or scaling Halaal to transform the market that we non users have no choice will be totally unacceptable.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    Did I misunderstand the article? I thought it said you were REQUIRED to have a certificate in order to operate... Edit: For most Sharia fintech startups, MUI certificates are not only commercially advantageous but legally required by the Financial Services Authority of Indonesia (OJK), the state financial regulator. Other areas of the Sharia digital economy, like halal e-commerce and umrah sites, travel-booking platforms for Islamic pilgrimages, do not require this certificate. So yes for fintech, maybe for ecommerce in general?
    - doesnotexist 6y ago
      Conventional banking and finance remains the bulk of activity within the country and I do not believe this announcement is declaring conventional products banned from the market at large. Rather I think this requirement only applies to a small section of the Indonesia financial industry, approximately 10% of the market. https://www.ojk.go.id/en/berita-dan-kegiatan/siaran-pers/Pages/Press-Release-Sharia-Finance-Gains-8-Market-Share.aspx https://www.ojk.go.id/en/berita-dan-kegiatan/siaran-pers/Pag... Participating in the Indonesian sharia finance economy would be more akin to something like organic certification on produce. Most farms are not organic but if you want to label your products as such then you have to undergo a certification process with an agency like the USDA. In this case to be certified Halal you have to gain the MUI certificate which is recognized by the OJK Financial Services Authority of Indonesian. However, an Indonesian person is likely better person to clarify this more precisely.
      - LatteLazy 6y ago
        But it applies to all of the fintech sector right? You cannot start or operate a fintech without religious permission? And by extension, forcing customers to buy products they don't actually want (sharia when they want non sharia).
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        doesnotexist 6y ago
- donpott 6y ago
  Wow. I'm surprised at how incompetent Ben Affleck is at debating, or even following a line of reasoning.
  - pc86 6y ago
    I think it's because he's angry, which is somewhat understandable, because he thinks he's debating with a racist. I'm not sure why he refuses to accept the fact that he might be wrong in this instance, though. I've seen him talk about other topics with Maher before and he's not nearly so bombastic or hard-headed. I saw an interesting interview with Harris shortly after this where he said everyone was shocked that Affleck inserted himself into the conversation this way as well. I haven't seen many episodes of this show but apparently this segment is always a one-on-one between Maher and the guest in question, usually talking about whatever book or movie they're promoting, and given Ben's relative frequency on the show prior to this, he was aware of that.
    - skinnymuch 6y ago
      That seems like a total lie by Harris. “Everyone”? The incident’s reactions are divided. Sam Harris is one of those people who has a huge [internet] rabid following. A following who love jumping on things and blowing things out of proportion while holding up their guy as amazing. Maher to a lesser extent. Not surprising that their fanbases and communities loyal to them are going to jump on this far more than necessary. It doesn’t matter if Affleck didn’t do a horrible job in that scene, the reaction wasn’t going to be that much different from Harris’ fans.
- input_sh 6y ago
  > Is Sharia law not a religious authority ruling folks who do not belong to that religion? Absolutely not. It specifically applies only to Muslims, while excluding others (known as dhimmi, which translates to something like "protected people"). Others have protected rights to live, have property, and freedom of religion, and in exchange they're expected to respect the authority of the State and are subjected to different taxes (jizya tax). Everything else depends on the implementation. It's basically how you get a vibrant expat community in places like Dubai.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    Absurdly wealthy inheritors looking to improve their public image on the backs of a slave labor underclass is how you get a "vibrant" expat community in places like Dubai.
rtx 6y ago
Sharia is bad and people should be ashamed about defending it.
- zxter 6y ago
  Can you elaborate?
  - rtx 6y ago
    We can start with the justification than it was mandated by someone better than humans.
    - Slightofhand 6y ago
      Muslim here. What do you exactly mean, genuinly curious. Who is better than humans?
      - rtx 6y ago
        Don't be, there is no sense in religion in today's day and age.
morelisp 6y ago
As someone with a close family member who spent much of their life working in explicitly Christian financial instruments (as offered by many companies in the US, e.g. Thrivent) it is shocking and sad to see the responses to this, which I am certain my family member never had to deal with.
LatteLazy 6y ago
My apologies if I've come across as islamiphobic, I have no problem with Islam itself or its followers. I would feel the same way about any other religious inspired law. For context, I'm gay, so my very existence is against many religious systems laws. That part is pretty easy to hate right?
- jedimind 6y ago
  >For context, I'm gay, so my very existence is against many religious systems laws. Not really, there are no punitive consequences for merely being attracted to the same sex, but there are for acting upon it publicly. Furthermore the law doesn't interfere with what's private nor is it allowed to breach the individual's privacy. Someone who doesn't wilfully disrupt the social order should have no problems in that regard. I think reductionist views can be slightly misleading sometimes.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
    I am ninety nine percent sure that sodomy would be punished if discovered or even suspected in many sharia regimes. The notion that sharia doesn't involved what is private seems quite revisionist to me. Can you point to a country where sharia law is enforced by the state where sodomy is allowed when it occurs in private? Would you care to quantify what fraction of people living in majority muslim states enjoy such protection?
    - jedimind 6y ago
      "where sodomy is allowed when it occurs in private?" - Don't you see the absurdity in this question? They don't have to 'allow' anything when it is in PRIVATE to begin with. There is nothing revisionist about the privacy rulings, so you are just trying to force your bigoted narrative. How would they even manage to find out what's going on in millions & millions of bedrooms, besides it being a colossal waste of time!? The whole notion is just grotesque.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago

pc86 6y ago

Is Sharia law not a religious authority ruling folks who do not belong to that religion? What exactly is Islamophobic about calling that out? The exchange between Bill Maher, Sam Harris, and Ben Affleck[0] is a great example of hamfisting Islamophobia into completely legitimate criticisms of Islam, Islamism, Sharia over secular society, etc. Not every criticism of Islam (and truthfully, the vast majority of criticisms of Islam) are not racist of Islamophobic. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

doesnotexist 6y ago
There is little to no difference between what the article is describing, a halal certificate on some financial instruments and the Kosher or Halal stamps you see on food products at the grocery store. In this case there is a consumer demand for products labelled Halal and it is being met by a body deemed to hold legitimacy in determining compliance, how this becomes a discussion about defending the entirety of a broad concept like Sharia is perplexing.
- pc86 6y ago
  Is a "halal certificate on some financial instruments" a relevant thing outside of Sharia law? This is a serious question. Are more moderate Muslims okay with interest, or is it pretty much across the board? I'm sure you can find some of any group okay with just about anything, I just mean in general. I'm not sure where on the spectrum of atheist to Islamist something like this falls. Right or wrong I have always associated refusal to use traditional banking a more hard-line Muslim belief.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Don't you think it's weird to have such strong opinions about something you don't know much about?
    - pc86 6y ago
      I think it's weird to frame my honest questions as having strong opinions.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- bckygldstn 6y ago
  Scale makes a difference here. Kosher food isn't in large enough demand in the US to transform the entire agricultural industry, so non-adherents still have real choice. A closer example might be the MPAA (US film rating group). It's a voluntary certification, but it's become a de facto requirement such that the small, opaque, non-government group shapes the level of violence (high) and nudity (low) in all TV and films.
  - doesnotexist 6y ago
    Surely most people will continue to be able to find a bank that will lend them money under familiar terms of interest. I find it hard to believe or take seriously that an Indonesian body certifying financial instruments of debt as Halal is going to upend JP Morgan and the western banking system en masse.
  - davchana 6y ago
    Exactly, in my religion/culture eating Halaal is forbidden, because of 100s of years of wars with Muslim Rulers. Forcing or scaling Halaal to transform the market that we non users have no choice will be totally unacceptable.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Did I misunderstand the article? I thought it said you were REQUIRED to have a certificate in order to operate... Edit: For most Sharia fintech startups, MUI certificates are not only commercially advantageous but legally required by the Financial Services Authority of Indonesia (OJK), the state financial regulator. Other areas of the Sharia digital economy, like halal e-commerce and umrah sites, travel-booking platforms for Islamic pilgrimages, do not require this certificate. So yes for fintech, maybe for ecommerce in general?
  - doesnotexist 6y ago
    Conventional banking and finance remains the bulk of activity within the country and I do not believe this announcement is declaring conventional products banned from the market at large. Rather I think this requirement only applies to a small section of the Indonesia financial industry, approximately 10% of the market. https://www.ojk.go.id/en/berita-dan-kegiatan/siaran-pers/Pages/Press-Release-Sharia-Finance-Gains-8-Market-Share.aspx https://www.ojk.go.id/en/berita-dan-kegiatan/siaran-pers/Pag... Participating in the Indonesian sharia finance economy would be more akin to something like organic certification on produce. Most farms are not organic but if you want to label your products as such then you have to undergo a certification process with an agency like the USDA. In this case to be certified Halal you have to gain the MUI certificate which is recognized by the OJK Financial Services Authority of Indonesian. However, an Indonesian person is likely better person to clarify this more precisely.
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      But it applies to all of the fintech sector right? You cannot start or operate a fintech without religious permission? And by extension, forcing customers to buy products they don't actually want (sharia when they want non sharia).
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - doesnotexist 6y ago
donpott 6y ago
Wow. I'm surprised at how incompetent Ben Affleck is at debating, or even following a line of reasoning.
- pc86 6y ago
  I think it's because he's angry, which is somewhat understandable, because he thinks he's debating with a racist. I'm not sure why he refuses to accept the fact that he might be wrong in this instance, though. I've seen him talk about other topics with Maher before and he's not nearly so bombastic or hard-headed. I saw an interesting interview with Harris shortly after this where he said everyone was shocked that Affleck inserted himself into the conversation this way as well. I haven't seen many episodes of this show but apparently this segment is always a one-on-one between Maher and the guest in question, usually talking about whatever book or movie they're promoting, and given Ben's relative frequency on the show prior to this, he was aware of that.
  - skinnymuch 6y ago
    That seems like a total lie by Harris. “Everyone”? The incident’s reactions are divided. Sam Harris is one of those people who has a huge [internet] rabid following. A following who love jumping on things and blowing things out of proportion while holding up their guy as amazing. Maher to a lesser extent. Not surprising that their fanbases and communities loyal to them are going to jump on this far more than necessary. It doesn’t matter if Affleck didn’t do a horrible job in that scene, the reaction wasn’t going to be that much different from Harris’ fans.
input_sh 6y ago
> Is Sharia law not a religious authority ruling folks who do not belong to that religion? Absolutely not. It specifically applies only to Muslims, while excluding others (known as dhimmi, which translates to something like "protected people"). Others have protected rights to live, have property, and freedom of religion, and in exchange they're expected to respect the authority of the State and are subjected to different taxes (jizya tax). Everything else depends on the implementation. It's basically how you get a vibrant expat community in places like Dubai.
- morelisp 6y ago
  Absurdly wealthy inheritors looking to improve their public image on the backs of a slave labor underclass is how you get a "vibrant" expat community in places like Dubai.

rtx 6y ago

Sharia is bad and people should be ashamed about defending it.

zxter 6y ago
Can you elaborate?
- rtx 6y ago
  We can start with the justification than it was mandated by someone better than humans.
  - Slightofhand 6y ago
    Muslim here. What do you exactly mean, genuinly curious. Who is better than humans?
    - rtx 6y ago
      Don't be, there is no sense in religion in today's day and age.

morelisp 6y ago

As someone with a close family member who spent much of their life working in explicitly Christian financial instruments (as offered by many companies in the US, e.g. Thrivent) it is shocking and sad to see the responses to this, which I am certain my family member never had to deal with.

LatteLazy 6y ago

My apologies if I've come across as islamiphobic, I have no problem with Islam itself or its followers. I would feel the same way about any other religious inspired law. For context, I'm gay, so my very existence is against many religious systems laws. That part is pretty easy to hate right?

jedimind 6y ago
>For context, I'm gay, so my very existence is against many religious systems laws. Not really, there are no punitive consequences for merely being attracted to the same sex, but there are for acting upon it publicly. Furthermore the law doesn't interfere with what's private nor is it allowed to breach the individual's privacy. Someone who doesn't wilfully disrupt the social order should have no problems in that regard. I think reductionist views can be slightly misleading sometimes.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  I am ninety nine percent sure that sodomy would be punished if discovered or even suspected in many sharia regimes. The notion that sharia doesn't involved what is private seems quite revisionist to me. Can you point to a country where sharia law is enforced by the state where sodomy is allowed when it occurs in private? Would you care to quantify what fraction of people living in majority muslim states enjoy such protection?
  - jedimind 6y ago
    "where sodomy is allowed when it occurs in private?" - Don't you see the absurdity in this question? They don't have to 'allow' anything when it is in PRIVATE to begin with. There is nothing revisionist about the privacy rulings, so you are just trying to force your bigoted narrative. How would they even manage to find out what's going on in millions & millions of bedrooms, besides it being a colossal waste of time!? The whole notion is just grotesque.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago