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I have conflicted feelings about this but I do think that the 'spin' is poor. China doesn't allow Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. behind the great firewall. W

I have conflicted feelings about this but I do think that the 'spin' is poor. China doesn't allow Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. behind the great firewall. Why not just say we are blocking their pseudo-government social apps to be at economic/market access parity. It seems accurate and fair. Spinning it as national security, while potentially true (really don't know), seems like an unnecessary narrative.

angio 6y ago
China banned these apps because they don't follow the Chinese law in regard to sharing data with the government (FB was banned after some protests where they didn't collaborate with the police). It follows that if the US wanted to ban Chinese apps the same way China does, they would need to either 1) prove that TikTok is breaking the current law 2) pass new, stricter, privacy laws so that TikTok cannot operate/be a threat without breaking the law.
- ahiknsr 6y ago
  Does Chinese law also allow the government to hack into companies when they don't cooperate with government? " In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google." https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    Companies operating within PRC's borders have it much worse: https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-update-lets-state-agencies-pen-test-local-companies/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-updat...
- Aunche 6y ago
  Even if a foreign website complies with all of arbitrary rules in China, the government will ban them with no warning and explanation. Sometimes they get restored, but the damage is already done. Even Apple is not immune and ITunes got shut down in China. https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-search-engine-blocked-in-china-internet-censorship https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store
- perennate 6y ago
  Given the arbitrary way in which the CCP laws you mentioned are applied, I don't see any practical difference with the US action. I do agree that the CCP's way gives a better image so that its spokespeople can pretend like they are just upholding the rule of law and hide the reality.
pc86 6y ago
NS is easier to sell than economic fairness. I think both are probably accurate.
snazz 6y ago
Stooping to China's level by blocking foreign software seems like an admission that the US cannot produce a viable competitor with its much more free market, does it not? If the other side plays dirty, playing dirty ourselves in response seems like a very poor precedent. Restricting the freedom of American citizens to choose a social media app feels like the antithesis of the American free-market ideology, in my opinion. I'm willing to entertain other ideas, of course, and I'd love to hear any flaws in my logic.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cwhiz 6y ago
  The US can, does, and should act reciprocally. In all markets where there are no restrictions in trade or commerce we treat foreign competitors fairly, as we should. In markets where US companies are not treated fairly, we should reciprocate. In the case of China, American companies are not treated fairly. We should reciprocate. Otherwise it's a lopsided engagement that will eventually result in Chinese corporate dominance. We can't operate in China, but they can operate in the US? No way.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dmurdoch 6y ago
    100% this. It's insane to me that some people don't understand this when I discuss it with them. Potential market share for chinese company: <population of world> Potential market share for literally any other company: <population of world - population of china>. Since <population of china> is ~1.4 Billion, and <population of world> is ~7.8 Billion, how does one not understand that a chinese company has an insane and unfair advantage.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      > Potential market share for literally any other company: <population of world - population of china>. China is one of the largest markets for a very large number of Western companies. If you ever go to China, chances are that the taxi that picks you up will be a Volkswagen, and the planes that take you from one city to the next will be made by Boeing or Airbus. You'll see Starbucks, McDonald's and KFC everywhere, and it's likely you'll stay in a Marriott or Hilton. If you go to the mall, you'll see foreign clothing brands everywhere, and the electronics shops will be filled with devices powered by Intel, Micron, Qualcomm, AMD, Nvidia, etc. > It's insane to me that some people don't understand this when I discuss it with them. What I don't get is how people believe that foreign companies don't operate in China. Have these people ever been to China?
badwolf 6y ago
Generally we try to consider ourselves above "an eye for an eye"
shadowgovt 6y ago
Probably because the government doesn't actually have the authority under current international or federal law to ban apps for reasons you listed. Apps exist in that weird "code is speech" space and regulation of them can get very nit-picky. If the intent is to ban them for the reasons you've listed, this is a disingenuous way to go about it and a court might see through the facade.
- danimal88 6y ago
  Could they not just but an insane tariff on them?
geofft 6y ago
Because there's a belief that America's political and economic freedoms make it a better country. If we not only admit that China's authoritarian approach produces better outcomes but also adopt it for ourselves, what is left of America? China also knows that oppressing an ethnic minority and placing them in forced labor is good for short-term economic success. America did this once, too, also in textiles no less, and concluded the same thing. Shall we go back to it so we can compete with China there too?
- danimal88 6y ago
  "China also knows that oppressing an ethnic minority and placing them in forced labor is good for short-term economic success" This actually makes the case for banning their products, not for being above banning their products though, right?
  - geofft 6y ago
    Yes, but as we just saw, that's not what anyone is doing. We're just adopting the state-owned enterprise model.
jeromenerf 6y ago
That may just be reasonable but I fear that reason has little importance regarding this tiktok matter. It looks like war on drugs from a distance, just layers of BS and misery.
notmynormalacc5 6y ago
> Spinning it as national security, while potentially true (really don't know) Do with this as you will, but I as a US citizen was personally impacted by the Chinese government's surveillance despite not being a target of their foreign intelligence operations. A random Chinese kid who was obsessed with forcing me to date him, who who has a politically-connected family in China, used the Chinese government's database against me. Just think how much worse it would be if American citizens were actually targeted by real operations.
ixtli 6y ago
There’s no real basis for the national security claim https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2020/08/07/cia-finds-no-evidence-chinese-government-has-accessed-tiktok-data-report-says/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsand...

angio 6y ago

China banned these apps because they don't follow the Chinese law in regard to sharing data with the government (FB was banned after some protests where they didn't collaborate with the police). It follows that if the US wanted to ban Chinese apps the same way China does, they would need to either 1) prove that TikTok is breaking the current law 2) pass new, stricter, privacy laws so that TikTok cannot operate/be a threat without breaking the law.

ahiknsr 6y ago
Does Chinese law also allow the government to hack into companies when they don't cooperate with government? " In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google." https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  Companies operating within PRC's borders have it much worse: https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-update-lets-state-agencies-pen-test-local-companies/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinas-cybersecurity-law-updat...
Aunche 6y ago
Even if a foreign website complies with all of arbitrary rules in China, the government will ban them with no warning and explanation. Sometimes they get restored, but the damage is already done. Even Apple is not immune and ITunes got shut down in China. https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-search-engine-blocked-in-china-internet-censorship https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/23/18195200/microsoft-bing-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store
perennate 6y ago
Given the arbitrary way in which the CCP laws you mentioned are applied, I don't see any practical difference with the US action. I do agree that the CCP's way gives a better image so that its spokespeople can pretend like they are just upholding the rule of law and hide the reality.

pc86 6y ago

NS is easier to sell than economic fairness. I think both are probably accurate.

snazz 6y ago

Stooping to China's level by blocking foreign software seems like an admission that the US cannot produce a viable competitor with its much more free market, does it not? If the other side plays dirty, playing dirty ourselves in response seems like a very poor precedent. Restricting the freedom of American citizens to choose a social media app feels like the antithesis of the American free-market ideology, in my opinion. I'm willing to entertain other ideas, of course, and I'd love to hear any flaws in my logic.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cwhiz 6y ago
The US can, does, and should act reciprocally. In all markets where there are no restrictions in trade or commerce we treat foreign competitors fairly, as we should. In markets where US companies are not treated fairly, we should reciprocate. In the case of China, American companies are not treated fairly. We should reciprocate. Otherwise it's a lopsided engagement that will eventually result in Chinese corporate dominance. We can't operate in China, but they can operate in the US? No way.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dmurdoch 6y ago
  100% this. It's insane to me that some people don't understand this when I discuss it with them. Potential market share for chinese company: <population of world> Potential market share for literally any other company: <population of world - population of china>. Since <population of china> is ~1.4 Billion, and <population of world> is ~7.8 Billion, how does one not understand that a chinese company has an insane and unfair advantage.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    > Potential market share for literally any other company: <population of world - population of china>. China is one of the largest markets for a very large number of Western companies. If you ever go to China, chances are that the taxi that picks you up will be a Volkswagen, and the planes that take you from one city to the next will be made by Boeing or Airbus. You'll see Starbucks, McDonald's and KFC everywhere, and it's likely you'll stay in a Marriott or Hilton. If you go to the mall, you'll see foreign clothing brands everywhere, and the electronics shops will be filled with devices powered by Intel, Micron, Qualcomm, AMD, Nvidia, etc. > It's insane to me that some people don't understand this when I discuss it with them. What I don't get is how people believe that foreign companies don't operate in China. Have these people ever been to China?

badwolf 6y ago

Generally we try to consider ourselves above "an eye for an eye"

shadowgovt 6y ago

Probably because the government doesn't actually have the authority under current international or federal law to ban apps for reasons you listed. Apps exist in that weird "code is speech" space and regulation of them can get very nit-picky. If the intent is to ban them for the reasons you've listed, this is a disingenuous way to go about it and a court might see through the facade.

danimal88 6y ago
Could they not just but an insane tariff on them?

geofft 6y ago

Because there's a belief that America's political and economic freedoms make it a better country. If we not only admit that China's authoritarian approach produces better outcomes but also adopt it for ourselves, what is left of America? China also knows that oppressing an ethnic minority and placing them in forced labor is good for short-term economic success. America did this once, too, also in textiles no less, and concluded the same thing. Shall we go back to it so we can compete with China there too?

danimal88 6y ago
"China also knows that oppressing an ethnic minority and placing them in forced labor is good for short-term economic success" This actually makes the case for banning their products, not for being above banning their products though, right?
- geofft 6y ago
  Yes, but as we just saw, that's not what anyone is doing. We're just adopting the state-owned enterprise model.

jeromenerf 6y ago

That may just be reasonable but I fear that reason has little importance regarding this tiktok matter. It looks like war on drugs from a distance, just layers of BS and misery.

notmynormalacc5 6y ago

> Spinning it as national security, while potentially true (really don't know) Do with this as you will, but I as a US citizen was personally impacted by the Chinese government's surveillance despite not being a target of their foreign intelligence operations. A random Chinese kid who was obsessed with forcing me to date him, who who has a politically-connected family in China, used the Chinese government's database against me. Just think how much worse it would be if American citizens were actually targeted by real operations.

ixtli 6y ago

There’s no real basis for the national security claim https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2020/08/07/cia-finds-no-evidence-chinese-government-has-accessed-tiktok-data-report-says/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsand...