3 ms·

Accept that one of the many costs (or benefits?) of liberty is non-reciprocation.

dismantlethesun 6y ago
I don't really see this as a liberty issue, but rather one of strict economic advantage. China currently has that---it ignores IP laws, when it suits them, but enforces them when it suits them. It forces ownership requirement rules on foreign companies within China, but encourages Chinese-backed take over of foreign companies outside of China. It bans foreign products within its country, to protect homegrown companies (or steals the IP, then bans the competition if it can't buy out the devalued company). In the case of trade between two multi-trillion dollar economies (US & China), if one side never retaliates over bad faith, and always is more permissive than the other then that side is bound to lose out. The way China is behaving, and has behaved for the past 30+ years, is unfair and detrimental to US companies and trading partners. It may sting in the short term to be denied Chinese financial support, and Chinese products but in the long term this is the only way to either force China apply parity and fairness in its own rulings, or stimulate a local economy that isn't wholly dependent and subordinate to Chinese interests.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  On Monday, will you be able to download TikTok in the USA? If not, how is that not an issue of liberty? You may be willing to give up liberty in exchange for some leveling of economic advantage, but you cannot also say that you are not, in fact, giving up that measure of liberty. I don't actually use TikTok, btw.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    If we recognize the government's ability to enact boycotts and sanctions, we must recognize its ability to ban foreign companies with connections to adversaries. If we reject the former, we have to make an argument that incorporates its centuries of precedent. (In the United States. Millenia, more generally.)
aaomidi 6y ago
100%. Our supposed difference is that we have a system of laws and accountability and doing business with the US isn't at the whim of a manchild like China. This is not a good thing.
- sumedh 6y ago
  Why let a competitor take advantage of you? Being morally right is of no use when it hurts your own citizens.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    I mean I've not even seen a proper argument for hurts your own citizens. If the US had a problem with tiktok they could've implemented a privacy framework and put everyone on that standard.
    - sumedh 6y ago
      Companies like FB cannot do business in China which directly hurts the company/its employees, shareholders, index fund and other fund investors. China could be using the Tiktok data and doing similar things which Russia and others did with FB data. What privacy framework? How would that prevent China from accessing Tiktok data?

I don't really see this as a liberty issue, but rather one of strict economic advantage. China currently has that---it ignores IP laws, when it suits them, but enforces them when it suits them. It forces ownership requirement rules on foreign companies within China, but encourages Chinese-backed take over of foreign companies outside of China. It bans foreign products within its country, to protect homegrown companies (or steals the IP, then bans the competition if it can't buy out the devalued company). In the case of trade between two multi-trillion dollar economies (US & China), if one side never retaliates over bad faith, and always is more permissive than the other then that side is bound to lose out. The way China is behaving, and has behaved for the past 30+ years, is unfair and detrimental to US companies and trading partners. It may sting in the short term to be denied Chinese financial support, and Chinese products but in the long term this is the only way to either force China apply parity and fairness in its own rulings, or stimulate a local economy that isn't wholly dependent and subordinate to Chinese interests.

pwinnski 6y ago
On Monday, will you be able to download TikTok in the USA? If not, how is that not an issue of liberty? You may be willing to give up liberty in exchange for some leveling of economic advantage, but you cannot also say that you are not, in fact, giving up that measure of liberty. I don't actually use TikTok, btw.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  If we recognize the government's ability to enact boycotts and sanctions, we must recognize its ability to ban foreign companies with connections to adversaries. If we reject the former, we have to make an argument that incorporates its centuries of precedent. (In the United States. Millenia, more generally.)

aaomidi 6y ago

100%. Our supposed difference is that we have a system of laws and accountability and doing business with the US isn't at the whim of a manchild like China. This is not a good thing.

sumedh 6y ago
Why let a competitor take advantage of you? Being morally right is of no use when it hurts your own citizens.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  I mean I've not even seen a proper argument for hurts your own citizens. If the US had a problem with tiktok they could've implemented a privacy framework and put everyone on that standard.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    Companies like FB cannot do business in China which directly hurts the company/its employees, shareholders, index fund and other fund investors. China could be using the Tiktok data and doing similar things which Russia and others did with FB data. What privacy framework? How would that prevent China from accessing Tiktok data?