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This is disappointing yet expected from the executive. What's more disappointing is watching the thunderous applause from technologists here and elsewhere as s

This is disappointing yet expected from the executive. What's more disappointing is watching the thunderous applause from technologists here and elsewhere as software is outlawed which is not otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Content is one thing, physical equipment another, but algorithms should be borderless. Most in the community disagree with encryption export restrictions, why can't they similarly disagree with software import restrictions? 2A groups recognize slippery slope precedents, why can't technologists? If the content/data is being harvested and/or managed illegally, then make that illegal and/or prosecute under that pretense (even if the evidence is subject to national security non-disclosure). Otherwise, it's obvious this is political posturing at the cost of digital freedom. It should be as widely condemned as government surveillance has been.

sumedh 6y ago
So what should you do when the China does not play by the same rules and bans US Apps?
- kodablah 6y ago
  Accept that one of the many costs (or benefits?) of liberty is non-reciprocation.
  - dismantlethesun 6y ago
    I don't really see this as a liberty issue, but rather one of strict economic advantage. China currently has that---it ignores IP laws, when it suits them, but enforces them when it suits them. It forces ownership requirement rules on foreign companies within China, but encourages Chinese-backed take over of foreign companies outside of China. It bans foreign products within its country, to protect homegrown companies (or steals the IP, then bans the competition if it can't buy out the devalued company). In the case of trade between two multi-trillion dollar economies (US & China), if one side never retaliates over bad faith, and always is more permissive than the other then that side is bound to lose out. The way China is behaving, and has behaved for the past 30+ years, is unfair and detrimental to US companies and trading partners. It may sting in the short term to be denied Chinese financial support, and Chinese products but in the long term this is the only way to either force China apply parity and fairness in its own rulings, or stimulate a local economy that isn't wholly dependent and subordinate to Chinese interests.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      On Monday, will you be able to download TikTok in the USA? If not, how is that not an issue of liberty? You may be willing to give up liberty in exchange for some leveling of economic advantage, but you cannot also say that you are not, in fact, giving up that measure of liberty. I don't actually use TikTok, btw.
      - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
        If we recognize the government's ability to enact boycotts and sanctions, we must recognize its ability to ban foreign companies with connections to adversaries. If we reject the former, we have to make an argument that incorporates its centuries of precedent. (In the United States. Millenia, more generally.)
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    100%. Our supposed difference is that we have a system of laws and accountability and doing business with the US isn't at the whim of a manchild like China. This is not a good thing.
    - sumedh 6y ago
      Why let a competitor take advantage of you? Being morally right is of no use when it hurts your own citizens.
      - aaomidi 6y ago
        I mean I've not even seen a proper argument for hurts your own citizens. If the US had a problem with tiktok they could've implemented a privacy framework and put everyone on that standard.
        sumedh 6y ago
        Companies like FB cannot do business in China which directly hurts the company/its employees, shareholders, index fund and other fund investors. China could be using the Tiktok data and doing similar things which Russia and others did with FB data. What privacy framework? How would that prevent China from accessing Tiktok data?
- joe33433 6y ago
  Ban all chinese apps instead of singling them out
  - sumedh 6y ago
    Why ban other apps if they are not doing any harmful?
rektide 6y ago
Rapid, unannounced & disruptive chaos. Massive harm to the citizens of all the world, injurious to our ability to communicate. Done by fiat, with no precedent, the flimsiest of legal pretenses, & only the vaguest attempts at remediation. Thank you, well said kodablah. This conflict-seeking behavior, this sudden slamming the door: it's a threat to functioning world order & against civic cause.
joe33433 6y ago
> ...which is not otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms Right. Instead of selectively banning apps like TikTok ban all chinese apps, that would be fair to china
maram 6y ago
> We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Are you saying we should trust communists with our data? This should have been Apple’s move! But they failed us.
- messick 6y ago
  Well, some of us are under 50 years old and just screaming out “Commies!” just hits different.

sumedh 6y ago

So what should you do when the China does not play by the same rules and bans US Apps?

kodablah 6y ago
Accept that one of the many costs (or benefits?) of liberty is non-reciprocation.
- dismantlethesun 6y ago
  I don't really see this as a liberty issue, but rather one of strict economic advantage. China currently has that---it ignores IP laws, when it suits them, but enforces them when it suits them. It forces ownership requirement rules on foreign companies within China, but encourages Chinese-backed take over of foreign companies outside of China. It bans foreign products within its country, to protect homegrown companies (or steals the IP, then bans the competition if it can't buy out the devalued company). In the case of trade between two multi-trillion dollar economies (US & China), if one side never retaliates over bad faith, and always is more permissive than the other then that side is bound to lose out. The way China is behaving, and has behaved for the past 30+ years, is unfair and detrimental to US companies and trading partners. It may sting in the short term to be denied Chinese financial support, and Chinese products but in the long term this is the only way to either force China apply parity and fairness in its own rulings, or stimulate a local economy that isn't wholly dependent and subordinate to Chinese interests.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    On Monday, will you be able to download TikTok in the USA? If not, how is that not an issue of liberty? You may be willing to give up liberty in exchange for some leveling of economic advantage, but you cannot also say that you are not, in fact, giving up that measure of liberty. I don't actually use TikTok, btw.
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      If we recognize the government's ability to enact boycotts and sanctions, we must recognize its ability to ban foreign companies with connections to adversaries. If we reject the former, we have to make an argument that incorporates its centuries of precedent. (In the United States. Millenia, more generally.)
- aaomidi 6y ago
  100%. Our supposed difference is that we have a system of laws and accountability and doing business with the US isn't at the whim of a manchild like China. This is not a good thing.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    Why let a competitor take advantage of you? Being morally right is of no use when it hurts your own citizens.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      I mean I've not even seen a proper argument for hurts your own citizens. If the US had a problem with tiktok they could've implemented a privacy framework and put everyone on that standard.
      - sumedh 6y ago
        Companies like FB cannot do business in China which directly hurts the company/its employees, shareholders, index fund and other fund investors. China could be using the Tiktok data and doing similar things which Russia and others did with FB data. What privacy framework? How would that prevent China from accessing Tiktok data?
joe33433 6y ago
Ban all chinese apps instead of singling them out
- sumedh 6y ago
  Why ban other apps if they are not doing any harmful?

rektide 6y ago

Rapid, unannounced & disruptive chaos. Massive harm to the citizens of all the world, injurious to our ability to communicate. Done by fiat, with no precedent, the flimsiest of legal pretenses, & only the vaguest attempts at remediation. Thank you, well said kodablah. This conflict-seeking behavior, this sudden slamming the door: it's a threat to functioning world order & against civic cause.

joe33433 6y ago

> ...which is not otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms Right. Instead of selectively banning apps like TikTok ban all chinese apps, that would be fair to china

maram 6y ago

> We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Are you saying we should trust communists with our data? This should have been Apple’s move! But they failed us.

messick 6y ago
Well, some of us are under 50 years old and just screaming out “Commies!” just hits different.