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"The US commerce department, which will issue the orders, stopped short of forcing Apple and Google to remove the Chinese versions of TikTok and WeChat from the

"The US commerce department, which will issue the orders, stopped short of forcing Apple and Google to remove the Chinese versions of TikTok and WeChat from their app stores in China." The rest of the world really needs to free itself from American monopoly big tech. It is simply unacceptable that I, a European in a European country, can have arbitrary apps on my phone blocked and removed by the whims of the American president.

momania 6y ago
I assume Apple will just remove it from the US App Store. You are aware that Apple can control the listed apps in the App Store per country?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  That's missing the point, though. The Commerce Department choosing not to go that broad doesn't make it less concerning that they can go that broad.
yulaow 6y ago
This is another good reason to have independent stores on mobile oses.
- kgwxd 6y ago
  No stores at all would be better.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    How? F-Droid has been a perfect store for me.
  - input_sh 6y ago
    On one hand I would like to agree with you, but on the other I'm reminded of all the update services running on my PC back when I used Windows and... no thanks. I prefer to be able to install updates from one place.
    - rektide 6y ago
      In Debian, there is a package management tool, apt. One can update all services, install packages &c through it. But it is a tool, not a store, not a repository. One points apt at whatever repositories they want. Thus folks like Ubuntu can fork Debian but use the same apt tool; create their own repository & point /etc/apt/sources.list at their repository rather than Debians. Apt goes further still. Debian doesn't/can't provide Google Chrome in their repos, but I can add a Google repository to /etc/apt/sources.list, and now my package manager can install Chrome. One can also do wild things like have both Debian & Ubuntu repositories listed in sources.list, and mix and match packages from the two, & manage/prioritize where to prefer to install from if unspecified. In contrast, we see other comments mentioning F-Droid (which requires elevated permissions most users don't have access to, i believe) as a good shop, versus Play Store. But even if that is the case, there are now multiple separate managers running on a system, each tied to their own repository, where-as by contrast, if apt were running on a phone, it could manage whatever set of repositories/stores the user selected, in a consistent central fashion. This model seems ideal to me. There are multiple repositories (stores) where one can install from, using a common, local package management tool that interfaces with these repositories. It has the upside of creating a good way to manage the system, & that manager can interface & harness many different sources of software concurrently.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    How would non techies get the apps?
    - zo1 6y ago
      Well how do they install "apps" on their computers right now without app stores? You know, there is really nothing magical about phones that requires them to need app-stores or marketplaces for software. Other than we've been putting ourselves into a corner that makes it necessary for them to be an ultra-secure computing device as opposed to our desktop devices.
      - EForEndeavour 6y ago
        They type a possibly inaccurate description of what they're looking for in their browser's default search bar and end up downloading and executing random programs from random websites without bothering to verify the trustworthiness of any of this process.
      - shuntress 6y ago
        You seem to be willfully ignoring the prevalence of malicious software and the necessity of at least some form of curated "software garden" in which users can have high confidence they are not accidentally installing malware.
      - sumedh 6y ago
        > Well how do they install "apps" on their computers right now without app stores? They depend on others or they install malwares on their computers, do you want the same to be happening on their phones?
kemiller2002 6y ago
Let me correct you there. The US needs to free itself from the monopoly big tech as well. I speak for a lot of people when I say we feel just as helpless and frustrated as the rest of the world.
shadowfiend 6y ago
For what it’s worth, so far there is no evidence to indicate that you can. All this paragraph points to, at best, is that the US Commerce Department thinks that you can. In fact it’s not clear whether it does, because it’s not clear who suggested that it might: the commerce department, or someone with no understanding of the legal capabilities it has?
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  The Federal government has more power to regulate US entities foreign behavior than domestic, not less. The Federal government's primary function is to regulate interstate and international affairs.
tomasreimers 6y ago
If you haven't read it already, you should check out Ben Thompson's article on The Four Internets (https://stratechery.com/2020/india-jio-and-the-four-internets/ https://stratechery.com/2020/india-jio-and-the-four-internet...). He talks a lot about what he thinks the future of the internet looks like in relation to geopolitics. Specifically, he makes the argument that the "American" internet is favorable to creating companies b/c it's effectively a wild west (with limited regulations and laws which favor the corporations, along with a relatively-rich user base). This allows many companies to start in America and then expand globally, which in turn allows the US to exercise soft power abroad. To change the status quo, in Europe in particular, would require either gov't intervention on what can be accessed via the internet (closer to what India is doing) OR more favorable laws to the creation of small tech cos (which unfortunately is not what regulation like GDPR accomplishes). Not saying I agree with all of it, but it's interesting to think about the nation-scale incentives to create global internet superpowers.
deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
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ericmay 6y ago
> It is simply unacceptable that I, a European in a European country, can have arbitrary apps on my phone blocked and removed by the whims of the American president. Well, I think in Europe you could probably have regulators say that these apps have to be available in order for the companies to operate in the EU or in specific countries. Not that I think that's a good idea, and the EU's approach to try and placate both China and the US has been a failure in my view (both are just taking advantage of fragmented EU member state interests). But let's take a broad perspective here. Countries all throughout the world can take actions that have consequences in other countries. The EU implements a tax on US tech companies or regulations (which I do largely agree with, but that's besides the point) and that affects me in the US. With a globalized world, it should be obvious that when the big movers make moves, things will reverberate around the world. Here's another example, I am (if you take a look at my post history you can confirm this! :) ) a HUGE fan of the Apple App Store model. If the EU forces Apple to allow multiple app stores, I imagine Apple will do that in the US too. It is simply unacceptable that I, as an American in America, can have arbitrary rules and regulations imposed on me by the whims of the EU bureaucracy.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  There is a huge difference between mandatory and voluntary. Blaming a foreign country for something Apple might do voluntarily (but most probably would not because they have to reason to harms their own interest) is absurd.
zpeti 6y ago
Every time you buy a US made phone, or use Google for searches, you are supporting the existence or the development of this situation. There was nothing stopping a European company (Nokia?) from making a good phone. But they didn't - at least in 2020 Apple won and Nokia lost, that might well change in the future.
- viraptor 6y ago
  Nokia produces some good quality phones recently. They just quit the software business. They all run Android.
  - throwaway4good 6y ago
    The only phone that I can buy, that is not based on an American app store subject of the US administration's long-arm legislation, is a Huawei.
    - viraptor 6y ago
      https://jolla-devices.com/ https://jolla-devices.com/
tomp 6y ago
Unfortunately the EU is relying on the US to keep the bad apps away, I'm pretty sure TikTok etc. are in gross violation of EU laws but unfortunately nobody in the EU has the cojones to enforce max (or meaningful) GDPR penalties.
est 6y ago
The funny thing is, there is no Chinese version of Tiktok. There's Douyin but different.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Everyone affects everyone if we have learned anything from the Climate Change debate.

momania 6y ago

I assume Apple will just remove it from the US App Store. You are aware that Apple can control the listed apps in the App Store per country?

ceejayoz 6y ago
That's missing the point, though. The Commerce Department choosing not to go that broad doesn't make it less concerning that they can go that broad.

yulaow 6y ago

This is another good reason to have independent stores on mobile oses.

kgwxd 6y ago
No stores at all would be better.
- fsflover 6y ago
  How? F-Droid has been a perfect store for me.
- input_sh 6y ago
  On one hand I would like to agree with you, but on the other I'm reminded of all the update services running on my PC back when I used Windows and... no thanks. I prefer to be able to install updates from one place.
  - rektide 6y ago
    In Debian, there is a package management tool, apt. One can update all services, install packages &c through it. But it is a tool, not a store, not a repository. One points apt at whatever repositories they want. Thus folks like Ubuntu can fork Debian but use the same apt tool; create their own repository & point /etc/apt/sources.list at their repository rather than Debians. Apt goes further still. Debian doesn't/can't provide Google Chrome in their repos, but I can add a Google repository to /etc/apt/sources.list, and now my package manager can install Chrome. One can also do wild things like have both Debian & Ubuntu repositories listed in sources.list, and mix and match packages from the two, & manage/prioritize where to prefer to install from if unspecified. In contrast, we see other comments mentioning F-Droid (which requires elevated permissions most users don't have access to, i believe) as a good shop, versus Play Store. But even if that is the case, there are now multiple separate managers running on a system, each tied to their own repository, where-as by contrast, if apt were running on a phone, it could manage whatever set of repositories/stores the user selected, in a consistent central fashion. This model seems ideal to me. There are multiple repositories (stores) where one can install from, using a common, local package management tool that interfaces with these repositories. It has the upside of creating a good way to manage the system, & that manager can interface & harness many different sources of software concurrently.
- sumedh 6y ago
  How would non techies get the apps?
  - zo1 6y ago
    Well how do they install "apps" on their computers right now without app stores? You know, there is really nothing magical about phones that requires them to need app-stores or marketplaces for software. Other than we've been putting ourselves into a corner that makes it necessary for them to be an ultra-secure computing device as opposed to our desktop devices.
    - EForEndeavour 6y ago
      They type a possibly inaccurate description of what they're looking for in their browser's default search bar and end up downloading and executing random programs from random websites without bothering to verify the trustworthiness of any of this process.
    - shuntress 6y ago
      You seem to be willfully ignoring the prevalence of malicious software and the necessity of at least some form of curated "software garden" in which users can have high confidence they are not accidentally installing malware.
    - sumedh 6y ago
      > Well how do they install "apps" on their computers right now without app stores? They depend on others or they install malwares on their computers, do you want the same to be happening on their phones?

kemiller2002 6y ago

Let me correct you there. The US needs to free itself from the monopoly big tech as well. I speak for a lot of people when I say we feel just as helpless and frustrated as the rest of the world.

shadowfiend 6y ago

For what it’s worth, so far there is no evidence to indicate that you can. All this paragraph points to, at best, is that the US Commerce Department thinks that you can. In fact it’s not clear whether it does, because it’s not clear who suggested that it might: the commerce department, or someone with no understanding of the legal capabilities it has?

srtjstjsj 6y ago
The Federal government has more power to regulate US entities foreign behavior than domestic, not less. The Federal government's primary function is to regulate interstate and international affairs.

tomasreimers 6y ago

If you haven't read it already, you should check out Ben Thompson's article on The Four Internets (https://stratechery.com/2020/india-jio-and-the-four-internets/ https://stratechery.com/2020/india-jio-and-the-four-internet...). He talks a lot about what he thinks the future of the internet looks like in relation to geopolitics. Specifically, he makes the argument that the "American" internet is favorable to creating companies b/c it's effectively a wild west (with limited regulations and laws which favor the corporations, along with a relatively-rich user base). This allows many companies to start in America and then expand globally, which in turn allows the US to exercise soft power abroad. To change the status quo, in Europe in particular, would require either gov't intervention on what can be accessed via the internet (closer to what India is doing) OR more favorable laws to the creation of small tech cos (which unfortunately is not what regulation like GDPR accomplishes). Not saying I agree with all of it, but it's interesting to think about the nation-scale incentives to create global internet superpowers.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ericmay 6y ago

> It is simply unacceptable that I, a European in a European country, can have arbitrary apps on my phone blocked and removed by the whims of the American president. Well, I think in Europe you could probably have regulators say that these apps have to be available in order for the companies to operate in the EU or in specific countries. Not that I think that's a good idea, and the EU's approach to try and placate both China and the US has been a failure in my view (both are just taking advantage of fragmented EU member state interests). But let's take a broad perspective here. Countries all throughout the world can take actions that have consequences in other countries. The EU implements a tax on US tech companies or regulations (which I do largely agree with, but that's besides the point) and that affects me in the US. With a globalized world, it should be obvious that when the big movers make moves, things will reverberate around the world. Here's another example, I am (if you take a look at my post history you can confirm this! :) ) a HUGE fan of the Apple App Store model. If the EU forces Apple to allow multiple app stores, I imagine Apple will do that in the US too. It is simply unacceptable that I, as an American in America, can have arbitrary rules and regulations imposed on me by the whims of the EU bureaucracy.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
There is a huge difference between mandatory and voluntary. Blaming a foreign country for something Apple might do voluntarily (but most probably would not because they have to reason to harms their own interest) is absurd.

zpeti 6y ago

Every time you buy a US made phone, or use Google for searches, you are supporting the existence or the development of this situation. There was nothing stopping a European company (Nokia?) from making a good phone. But they didn't - at least in 2020 Apple won and Nokia lost, that might well change in the future.

viraptor 6y ago
Nokia produces some good quality phones recently. They just quit the software business. They all run Android.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  The only phone that I can buy, that is not based on an American app store subject of the US administration's long-arm legislation, is a Huawei.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    https://jolla-devices.com/ https://jolla-devices.com/

tomp 6y ago

Unfortunately the EU is relying on the US to keep the bad apps away, I'm pretty sure TikTok etc. are in gross violation of EU laws but unfortunately nobody in the EU has the cojones to enforce max (or meaningful) GDPR penalties.

est 6y ago

The funny thing is, there is no Chinese version of Tiktok. There's Douyin but different.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Everyone affects everyone if we have learned anything from the Climate Change debate.