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TikTok to be banned from US app stores from Sunday
- nnx 6y agoIt's terrible precedent. What about the first amendment? Software is speech.
- evfanknitram 6y agoHow is software "speech"? Do you consider all software "speech"? Do you think any form of software should be allowed, no matter what?
- nnx 6y agoYes, all software is speech and any form of software should be allowed. If not, who decides what software is allowed or not? Will I need to get a license from the government before I push my PR to a repo?
- Minor49er 6y agoDo you consider blueprints and mechanical diagrams to be speech?
- anonymousab 6y agoUnder the US constitution and given legal precedent, absolutely.
- milktoast 6y agoWhat if you made the same argument for photography and freedom of speech? > Yes, all photography is speech and any form of photography should be allowed. > If not, who decides which photography is allowed or not? Will I need to get a license from the government before I publish a photograph online? You see the problem here, don't you? There are many cases where a photograph can be illegal.
- anonymousab 6y agoSure. There are also many cases where any kind of speech can be illegal, depending on the context and content of the speech. That does not mean that form of speech is not constitutionally protected. Legally, whether photographs are speech seems to come down to whether they are taken with communicative intent or not.
- nnx 6y agoThis is within the well known (and tested) limits of freedom of speech... which neither TikTok or WeChat software were found guilty of (with or without due process).
- actsasbuffoon 6y agoI don’t think software is speech, but to play devil’s advocate for a moment; if money is speech then why can’t software be speech? Both propositions seems equally ridiculous, but the Supreme Court has affirmed that money is speech.
- DennisP 6y agoThe Ninth Circuit affirmed that software is speech in Bernstein. It's the reason cryptography is no longer heavily restricted by the US.
- Radle 6y agoExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There's no evidence at all that software can in any capacity be speech as defined under the us constitution.
- DennisP 6y ago"One of EFF's first major legal victories was Bernstein v. Department of Justice, a landmark case that resulted in establishing code as speech and changed United States export regulations on encryption software, paving the way for international e-commerce." https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/04/remembering-case-established-code-speech https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/04/remembering-case-estab...
- DSingularity 6y agoTerrible precedent it may be yet the idea that software is speech is probably even worse. You can’t just equate software with speech because to prevent an outcome you dislike.
- nickles 6y agoThe Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that software is speech in Bernstein v United States. The precedent already exists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States
- DSingularity 6y agoI will acquiesce to that argument if we were discussing the government attempting to prevent tiktok from open sourcing their implementation. It is a stretch, however, to present this decision as a precedent preventing the government from regulating application markets.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Invictus0 6y agoMaybe this is my mechanical engineering brain kicking in but isn't software more akin to machinery? I press the run button and gears turn and oil burns and a piece of toast comes out.
- tpmx 6y agoDetails: https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2020/09/commerce-department-prohibits-wechat-and-tiktok-transactions-protect https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2020/09/commerc... Interestingly the list of prohibited transactions includes "internet transit/peering enabling the functioning of Tiktok" in the U.S, among other things.
- mhandley 6y agoThe full wording is "Any provision directly contracted or arranged internet transit or peering services enabling the function or optimization of the mobile application within the U.S.;" I've written my own BGP implementation and even I'm not quite sure what they mean by this. My best guess is this means ISPs operating in the US can't directly peer with a network that enables the functioning of TikTok, but probably doesn't go as far as requiring them to block any IP address ranges received indirectly via other networks. This applies both to TikTok and WeChat.
- 082349872349872 6y agoI guess "Any utilization of the mobile application’s constituent code, functions, or services in the functioning of software or services developed and/or accessible within the U.S." is to prevent simply browsing https://www.tiktok.com/ https://www.tiktok.com/ ?
- newyorker2 6y agohttps://archive.is/l6ex8 https://archive.is/l6ex8
- euix 6y agoWonder how long before Chinese people will have to anglicize their names in the U.S. On a more serious note, I wonder how this can be enforced? Prevent distribution on Play store and apple store? Can't you just sideload on android? You have to prevent connections to the server side right? Maybe via ISP providers or mobile companies to get them to prevent access?
- abduhl 6y agoThis has been happening for a long time. You really think that a first generation immigrant from Asia is named Sherry or Johnny?
- mathieuh 6y agoI assumed they meant anglicise their whole name to avoid persecution rather than just adopting a common American name for ease of pronunciation.
- djohnston 6y agoit will work for the vast majority of unsophisticated users
- ericmay 6y ago> Wonder how long before Chinese people will have to anglicize their names in the U.S. Why would they have to do that? Most Americans probably can't tell the difference between Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or other East Asian names. I guess if Fox News starts publishing "this is what a Chinese name is" we should worry (not that I should give them any ideas), but I really doubt that'll happen. Americans don't like the Chinese government, and for extremely good reason. > On a more serious note, I wonder how this can be enforced? Prevent distribution on Play store and apple store? Can't you just sideload on android? You have to prevent connections to the server side right? Maybe via ISP providers or mobile companies to get them to prevent access? Yea it'll be blocked on the official distribution channels. You'll probably be able to side load it, but lots of people don't know how to do that and probably don't care enough. I guess we'll find out what happens. The US can certainly have companies like ISPs comply here.
- pmontra 6y agoWeChat too. People will be able to sideload those apps on Android to keep current with new features and invisible changes to the server protocol. That's going to be a source of vulnerabilities though.
- chenzhekl 6y agoThat's where Android is better than iOS. At least, users still have the freedom to sideload anything they want.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tomasreimers 6y agoWeChat seems like a really big deal here. My understanding is that to basically function in China you need to have WeChat on your phone (to call a car, pay at a restaurant, etc. ) If we box Americans out of it entirely, how will that affect travel to China? Will people pick up cheap/limited-use androids at the airport that they can use for all these functions?
- robjan 6y agoAmericans don't have access to the payment features of WeChat since it requires a Chinese bank account (with the exception of HK and Macau). It's a pain in the butt. Even as someone living in HK with an RMB denominated Unionpay card, I can't use it to pay in mainland China.
- tomasreimers 6y agoWow I didn't know that - do you know why? Is it that international interchange is just too much of a hassle?
- robjan 6y agoI can only guess it's a mix of local regulations and the fact that the RMB (CNY) isn't freely convertible. There's an HK version of WeChat pay which is more open but isn't very widely used since we have had the Octopus stored value card for nearly 25 years which serves a similar purpose. For everything else there's MasterCard (or Visa / AE).
- technics256 6y agoCan someone comment on the legality of this? I imagine Apple or Google trying to fight this in court?
- georgyo 6y agoNeither Apple or Google have any incentive to fight this. Tiktok already has already started suing.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- matz1 6y agoApple may have incentive because iphone sales might go down because consumer will flock to android since you can't sideload wechat on ios.
- dielll 6y agoThey never fought for Huawei in court. They wont fight for Tiktok
- wil421 6y agoWhy would Apple or Google do anything except comply? Apple already complies with Chinese iPhones in China. Google tried to build a Chinese Google.
- throwaway4good 6y ago"The US commerce department, which will issue the orders, stopped short of forcing Apple and Google to remove the Chinese versions of TikTok and WeChat from their app stores in China." The rest of the world really needs to free itself from American monopoly big tech. It is simply unacceptable that I, a European in a European country, can have arbitrary apps on my phone blocked and removed by the whims of the American president.
- momania 6y agoI assume Apple will just remove it from the US App Store. You are aware that Apple can control the listed apps in the App Store per country?
- ceejayoz 6y agoThat's missing the point, though. The Commerce Department choosing not to go that broad doesn't make it less concerning that they can go that broad.
- yulaow 6y agoThis is another good reason to have independent stores on mobile oses.
- kgwxd 6y agoNo stores at all would be better.
- throwaway4good 6y agoI bet TikTok will see a spike in downloads over the next few days ... Orange guerrilla marketing for the win!
- threatofrain 6y agoMOST concerning is the fact that WeChat will be banned. To many Asian demographics, that's a mainstream chat application for keeping in touch with family.
- tomasreimers 6y agoNo family in China, but some friends there. Do you know of any good replacements for contacting friends & family there? The google suite is banned, FB is off the table, WhatsApp works sometimes (I imagine strained relationships between FB / China), Skype is alright, although pretty laggy. The ones I've found reliable are: - Zoom - Facetime (I imagine this benefits from Apple's relationship wit the Chinese govt) - WeChat (soon deprecated)
- lisnake 6y agoTelegram maybe? Not sure if it works in China though.
- zkid18 6y agoAlso blocked in China
- devit 6y agoE-mail? (PGP encrypted and signed if needed) WebRTC-based software? (e.g. Jitsi Meet, https://meet.jit.si https://meet.jit.si)
- irjustin 6y agoWe use Zoom - that's about the only thing left these days that works reliably other than a self hosted VPN tunnel.
- 1915cb1f 6y agoMy parents, who work in both China and the U.S., use telegram
- f1refly 6y ago
- sim_io 6y agoSo this means their recent GCP contract cannot happen now?
- nl 6y agoSo what exactly did Oracle buy/not buy/whatever they did or didn't do with TikTok? And why did it not do whatever it was supposed to do?
- srtjstjsj 6y agoThis order is only if the oracle deal collapses.
- singularity2001 6y agocrucial information burried here
- millisecond 6y agoThe Oracle deal didn’t cut it? Did I miss something?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- srtjstjsj 6y agoWhat does the article say?
- srtjstjsj 6y agoBetter source: https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2020/09/commerce-department-prohibits-wechat-and-tiktok-transactions-protect https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2020/09/commerc... > As of September 20, 2020, for WeChat and as of November 12, 2020, for TikTok, the following transactions are prohibited: Any provision of internet hosting services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; Any provision of content delivery network services enabling the functioning or optimization of the mobile application in the U.S.; Any provision directly contracted or arranged internet transit or peering services enabling the function or optimization of the mobile application within the U.S.; Any utilization of the mobile application’s constituent code, functions, or services in the functioning of software or services developed and/or accessible within the U.S.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- helen___keller 6y agoNot a big fan of this. It was weird having a Wechat call alongside my wife talking to her grandmother in china basically under the assumption that this may be the last time we talk to her ever because wechat is going to be blocked. Later we learned that it was only going to be removed from app stores, which is easy enough for me to work around. But I really don't appreciate this move by the government. Not to understate all the awful things that the CCP has done and is continuing to do, but I'd rather not see the USA become the authoritarian government that it's trying to combat. How about ordering app stores to put a warning label that the app may be leaking data to hostile foreign governments, rather than taking away MY choice to use the app?
- CGamesPlay 6y agoI don't understand. There aren't any other ways for you to make a call to China? Does China block Skype, WhatsApp? Genuine questions.
- helen___keller 6y agoFrom my understanding they are both blocked (or atleast not available on chinese app stores). I believe imessage & facetime would work, except my relatives don't have iPhones. Realistically, if it came down to it my plan was to buy a VPN to china, and if that wasn't good enough to unlock wechat, to send relatives an iPhone. A simple app store block is a lot easier to get around, luckily.
- derwiki 6y agoOT: is there a trick to getting a VPN that works reliably? I’ve tried a different one each time I’ve visited and none have worked well enough for basic web browsing
- helen___keller 6y agoAre you talking about a VPN into china or a VPN out to the western internet? For the latter, I don't know if this still works but last time I visited China my Google Fi plan (which has a built in VPN https://support.google.com/fi/answer/9040000?hl=en https://support.google.com/fi/answer/9040000?hl=en ) actually worked with no further changes, so I was able to pretend I was on western internet over 4G the entire time I was in China. This was in early 2019. Which is lucky for me because the school VPN I was initially relying on stopped working halfway through the trip.
- mensetmanusman 6y agoSad about WeChat, but have to admit it sucks that China uses surveillance of the platform to imprison people. Would be great if it forces everyone to use Signal or whatnot that has E2EE.
- kodablah 6y agoThis is disappointing yet expected from the executive. What's more disappointing is watching the thunderous applause from technologists here and elsewhere as software is outlawed which is not otherwise illegal and is not being litigated as illegal. We should not cheer on the restriction of any software on nationalistic terms. Content is one thing, physical equipment another, but algorithms should be borderless. Most in the community disagree with encryption export restrictions, why can't they similarly disagree with software import restrictions? 2A groups recognize slippery slope precedents, why can't technologists? If the content/data is being harvested and/or managed illegally, then make that illegal and/or prosecute under that pretense (even if the evidence is subject to national security non-disclosure). Otherwise, it's obvious this is political posturing at the cost of digital freedom. It should be as widely condemned as government surveillance has been.
- sumedh 6y agoSo what should you do when the China does not play by the same rules and bans US Apps?
- kodablah 6y agoAccept that one of the many costs (or benefits?) of liberty is non-reciprocation.
- dismantlethesun 6y agoI don't really see this as a liberty issue, but rather one of strict economic advantage. China currently has that---it ignores IP laws, when it suits them, but enforces them when it suits them. It forces ownership requirement rules on foreign companies within China, but encourages Chinese-backed take over of foreign companies outside of China. It bans foreign products within its country, to protect homegrown companies (or steals the IP, then bans the competition if it can't buy out the devalued company). In the case of trade between two multi-trillion dollar economies (US & China), if one side never retaliates over bad faith, and always is more permissive than the other then that side is bound to lose out. The way China is behaving, and has behaved for the past 30+ years, is unfair and detrimental to US companies and trading partners. It may sting in the short term to be denied Chinese financial support, and Chinese products but in the long term this is the only way to either force China apply parity and fairness in its own rulings, or stimulate a local economy that isn't wholly dependent and subordinate to Chinese interests.
- stunt 6y agoI don't think they are lock-in to US based public cloud providers since they also use Chinese cloud providers, but I wonder how this ban will impact discussions around vendor lock-in. Lots of companies will go into deep trouble if US decide to ban their business to use US based services in such short notice.
- JohnTHaller 6y agoFor those personally affected, you can still sideload WeChat, TikTok, and Fortnite on Android just as always.
- joe33433 6y agoOn the bright side these national bans are encouraging federated encrypted messaging protocols
- Animats 6y agoWashington Post story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/18/tiktok-wechat-ban-trump/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/18/tiktok-... What's the legislative authority for this?
- Animats 6y agoActual executive order re WeChat: [1] This is under the Emergency Economic Powers Act, which derives its authority from the interstate commerce clause in the U.S. Constitution. There's a free speech issue here - can one distribute free software despite the wishes of the administration? ACLU says the administration went too far.[2] Expect a lawsuit shortly. [1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/08/11/2020-17700/addressing-the-threat-posed-by-wechat-and-taking-additional-steps-to-address-the-national-emergency https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/08/11/2020-17... [2] https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-wechat/ https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-we...
- jjav 6y agoAll TikTok politics aside, this is another case why walled-garden app stores are a terrible idea. Content controlled by a single corporation means it is this easy to shut down software. Compare this scenario vs. trying to prevent people from using, say, irssi (or any IRC client) where the source code is available from a thousand places and one can simply compile it locally.