4 ms·

Wow this is huge. I used to play online poker for a living, I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year when they came down on online poker previo

by eof 16y ago

Wow this is huge. I used to play online poker for a living, I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year when they came down on online poker previously (UIGEA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE_Port_Act#Internet_gambling_provisions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE_Port_Act#Internet_gambling... It's worth noting that these are NOT American companies. It doesn't look like anyone (players) has had their assests seized; but this is bad news for a lot of people. It also appears people are still playing.

davidcann 16y ago
The real issue here is the seizure of domain names. US citizens who gamble online know full well that they're breaking the law and are subject to lose assets. The domain seizures are very troubling, though. Edit: There seems to be some dispute over where it's a crime to "participate" in different US states, but for the purposes of the "customer assests seized", the transaction is illegal, so it's to be expected that the "cash is locked up" as the result of government action.
- slay2k 16y ago
  Um, no, US citizens don't know that. If they did, smart professional players like Durrr and Ivey wouldn't keep multi-million dollar bankrolls online that are subject to loss at any time. That's just common sense.
  - bjonathan 16y ago
    they are red pro , they will be fine, the real risk is for middle/high stakes grinders who dont have the same relationship with the big sites and as OP said risk to have their money freeze for some time (a US player is already reporting on 2+2 that he cant withdraw his money from FT)
- albedoa 16y ago
  Um, what? Can you cite the law they "know" to be breaking?
- generalk 16y ago
  You do understand that gambling online isn't illegal in the United States, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIGEA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIGEA UIGEA "prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with the participation of another person in a bet or wager that involves the use of the Internet and that is unlawful under any federal or state law." but does not make it a crime for a citizen to engage in the activity.
  - elliottcarlson 16y ago
    Correction - it is illegal for them to participate in the activity of gambling - it is not illegal for them to participate in the activity of playing poker, for fun.
  - eof 16y ago
    It is illegal in a handful of states. http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/ http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/ You are right though, the UIGEA makes it illegal to transfer money from a US citizens account to an 'illegal gambling operation.' It doesn't actually define what an illegal gambling operation is.
  - icey 16y ago
    Except for horse racing.
  - ikono 16y ago
    I think technically gambling online is illegal in the US but it's covered by the wire act and not UIGEA. I'm not 100% sure as it's been a while since I've kept up with this but I believe that Poker has always been in a sort of gray area. I think there is suppose to be a distinction between games of chance and games of skill. In the past only online sports books or true online casinos had ever been prosecuted in the US.
- kragen 16y ago
  Are you saying that even US citizens who live outside the US are breaking US law if they gamble online?
pavel_lishin 16y ago
> I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year This isn't a judgement, but a real attempt to understand: why would you lock up a significant amount of money someplace like that?
- jeffepp 16y ago
  This was (and still is) common practice for online poker pros. I have some friends who play for a living and I did while in school... Keeping money online or in a "Neteller" account was a good way to keep a bankroll outside your regular "spending money." Most professional (or serious) players keep a bankroll as a running tally of gains/losses and for tax purposes (yes, it's true).
- eof 16y ago
  Well in the pre-uigea days Neteller was the company winning th transfer market.. very similar to paypal except you could use them for poker sites. When the UIGEA passed, neteller had all it's assests frozen. This is common practice though.. poker players will have a huge chunk of their networth on poker sites. Keeping money online just made sense, that's where you would use it to make more money. So I didn't get it locked up from a poker site itself (as far as I know no one lost money that way), but from the payment processor. Everyone got their money back, it was just a long time. I had a couple months worth of living expenses (I was small time).. but others had dozens to hundreds of 1000's locked up.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    > neteller had all it's assests frozen. ... making it just as vulnerable as virtually anything, right? So... And until they exchange it, it's in a currency that's only recognized by a single "bank" - the Poker site - so in my mind (and this might just be me being insane) it's not really real. If I can't buy a sandwich or a beer with it, it doesn't feel like real cash.
- BrandonM 16y ago
  Professional poker players can only safely risk 5% or less of their bankroll at any one time (due to luck factors -- there are many ups and downs), players typically keep their bankroll as large as possible so that they can play as high-stakes as possible. The higher your stakes, the higher your hourly rate. Where do you keep your cash? If your business deals in dollars and cents, you probably keep it in a bank account. Your clients pay you, making its way into your account, and you pay bills out of that account. Poker players do all their business with their poker accounts. Rakeback sites deposit directly into the accounts, player transfers are often used to facilitate real-world transactions between friends, and things like concierge service can even be provided by the poker sites themselves. For a poker player, their online accounts are both their cash and their capital. There's really no way around having a large amount of money tied up on these sites if you're a high stakes player. And it's not irrational. These sites make so much money in rake every day that it would never make sense for them to run off with everyone's money. At least not until the government steps in, seizes their cash, and threatens their business model when it's not even clear that the act of hosting poker games is against the law.

by eof 16y ago

davidcann 16y ago

The real issue here is the seizure of domain names. US citizens who gamble online know full well that they're breaking the law and are subject to lose assets. The domain seizures are very troubling, though. Edit: There seems to be some dispute over where it's a crime to "participate" in different US states, but for the purposes of the "customer assests seized", the transaction is illegal, so it's to be expected that the "cash is locked up" as the result of government action.

slay2k 16y ago
Um, no, US citizens don't know that. If they did, smart professional players like Durrr and Ivey wouldn't keep multi-million dollar bankrolls online that are subject to loss at any time. That's just common sense.
- bjonathan 16y ago
  they are red pro , they will be fine, the real risk is for middle/high stakes grinders who dont have the same relationship with the big sites and as OP said risk to have their money freeze for some time (a US player is already reporting on 2+2 that he cant withdraw his money from FT)
albedoa 16y ago
Um, what? Can you cite the law they "know" to be breaking?
generalk 16y ago
You do understand that gambling online isn't illegal in the United States, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIGEA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIGEA UIGEA "prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with the participation of another person in a bet or wager that involves the use of the Internet and that is unlawful under any federal or state law." but does not make it a crime for a citizen to engage in the activity.
- elliottcarlson 16y ago
  Correction - it is illegal for them to participate in the activity of gambling - it is not illegal for them to participate in the activity of playing poker, for fun.
- eof 16y ago
  It is illegal in a handful of states. http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/ http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/ You are right though, the UIGEA makes it illegal to transfer money from a US citizens account to an 'illegal gambling operation.' It doesn't actually define what an illegal gambling operation is.
- icey 16y ago
  Except for horse racing.
- ikono 16y ago
  I think technically gambling online is illegal in the US but it's covered by the wire act and not UIGEA. I'm not 100% sure as it's been a while since I've kept up with this but I believe that Poker has always been in a sort of gray area. I think there is suppose to be a distinction between games of chance and games of skill. In the past only online sports books or true online casinos had ever been prosecuted in the US.
kragen 16y ago
Are you saying that even US citizens who live outside the US are breaking US law if they gamble online?

pavel_lishin 16y ago

> I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year This isn't a judgement, but a real attempt to understand: why would you lock up a significant amount of money someplace like that?

jeffepp 16y ago
This was (and still is) common practice for online poker pros. I have some friends who play for a living and I did while in school... Keeping money online or in a "Neteller" account was a good way to keep a bankroll outside your regular "spending money." Most professional (or serious) players keep a bankroll as a running tally of gains/losses and for tax purposes (yes, it's true).
eof 16y ago
Well in the pre-uigea days Neteller was the company winning th transfer market.. very similar to paypal except you could use them for poker sites. When the UIGEA passed, neteller had all it's assests frozen. This is common practice though.. poker players will have a huge chunk of their networth on poker sites. Keeping money online just made sense, that's where you would use it to make more money. So I didn't get it locked up from a poker site itself (as far as I know no one lost money that way), but from the payment processor. Everyone got their money back, it was just a long time. I had a couple months worth of living expenses (I was small time).. but others had dozens to hundreds of 1000's locked up.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > neteller had all it's assests frozen. ... making it just as vulnerable as virtually anything, right? So... And until they exchange it, it's in a currency that's only recognized by a single "bank" - the Poker site - so in my mind (and this might just be me being insane) it's not really real. If I can't buy a sandwich or a beer with it, it doesn't feel like real cash.
BrandonM 16y ago
Professional poker players can only safely risk 5% or less of their bankroll at any one time (due to luck factors -- there are many ups and downs), players typically keep their bankroll as large as possible so that they can play as high-stakes as possible. The higher your stakes, the higher your hourly rate. Where do you keep your cash? If your business deals in dollars and cents, you probably keep it in a bank account. Your clients pay you, making its way into your account, and you pay bills out of that account. Poker players do all their business with their poker accounts. Rakeback sites deposit directly into the accounts, player transfers are often used to facilitate real-world transactions between friends, and things like concierge service can even be provided by the poker sites themselves. For a poker player, their online accounts are both their cash and their capital. There's really no way around having a large amount of money tied up on these sites if you're a high stakes player. And it's not irrational. These sites make so much money in rake every day that it would never make sense for them to run off with everyone's money. At least not until the government steps in, seizes their cash, and threatens their business model when it's not even clear that the act of hosting poker games is against the law.