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>He said it's not self-correcting, meaning people have to take charge to build the country that they need and want. Yeah, and he believes that this has to happ

>He said it's not self-correcting, meaning people have to take charge to build the country that they need and want. Yeah, and he believes that this has to happen through a revolution, because the democratic system can't fix itself _even if the people vote and try to change laws to do so_. >That's not the same as saying it can't be fixed. Maybe you call tearing down a system and replacing it wither another 'fixing', but I (and likely most others) certainly don't. At the very least, it's a hell of a lot more pessimistic than reformism.

jolux 6y ago
Reform and revolution are a false dichotomy. Social movements and popular unrest effect the electoral process significantly.
- ImprobableTruth 6y ago
  >Reform and revolution are a false dichotomy. Reformist and revolutionist actions aren't contradictory, but reform and revolution absolutely are. People who advocate for revolution (which Zinn does in the above quote) fundamentally reject the idea that peaceful, incremental legislative reform could be used to transform the democratic system. >Social movements and popular unrest effect the electoral process significantly Sure, but Zinn isn't advocating for that. This bit >The situation required not just a new president or new laws, but an uprooting of the old order, the introduction of a new kind of society makes it pretty damn clear that he thinks real change won't come through the electoral process.
  - jolux 6y ago
    >makes it pretty damn clear that he thinks real change won't come through the electoral process. Yeah, and that's where I break with Zinn, (because it requires a silly definition of "real" change) but you're wrong if you think he's advocating violent overthrow. He was in favor of civil disobedience. His contemporary Chomsky has been quite clear on this, especially recently, when he's even criticized leftists for defending violence at protests.

jolux 6y ago

Reform and revolution are a false dichotomy. Social movements and popular unrest effect the electoral process significantly.

ImprobableTruth 6y ago
>Reform and revolution are a false dichotomy. Reformist and revolutionist actions aren't contradictory, but reform and revolution absolutely are. People who advocate for revolution (which Zinn does in the above quote) fundamentally reject the idea that peaceful, incremental legislative reform could be used to transform the democratic system. >Social movements and popular unrest effect the electoral process significantly Sure, but Zinn isn't advocating for that. This bit >The situation required not just a new president or new laws, but an uprooting of the old order, the introduction of a new kind of society makes it pretty damn clear that he thinks real change won't come through the electoral process.
- jolux 6y ago
  >makes it pretty damn clear that he thinks real change won't come through the electoral process. Yeah, and that's where I break with Zinn, (because it requires a silly definition of "real" change) but you're wrong if you think he's advocating violent overthrow. He was in favor of civil disobedience. His contemporary Chomsky has been quite clear on this, especially recently, when he's even criticized leftists for defending violence at protests.