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I've just been given an offer from Facebook and I have a few days to decide to take the job or not. The ethical implications of what I'm doing are intense. On

I've just been given an offer from Facebook and I have a few days to decide to take the job or not. The ethical implications of what I'm doing are intense. On one hand, a near 400k total comp package is very nice, but on the other hand I don't want to make the world worse off. I think if I could make that kind of money working from home for another company it'd be an easier decision. Unfortunately, I have to play the hand I'm dealt.

trhway 6y ago
Don't sell yourself that cheap, ask for 600k. Once you get it, your doubts will disappear just like by magic.
bendoernberg 6y ago
How much less would you make working at another, less evil company?
- throwitawayfb 6y ago
  Unknown. No other company has recruited me and made me an offer.
jgacook 6y ago
If you're being offered a $400K comp package I can say with a lot of certainty that you have not been dealt a hand and are, in fact, a highly skilled worker with a great many options for employment, so sincere congratulations on your success! It's therefore hard to see how taking this offer would not be choosing to sell your ethics for money and success, given that you could likely land a well paid job anywhere.
chmaynard 6y ago
Consult a lawyer for advice on the legal implications of being directed to work on projects that either violate the law or your own ethical principles. The lawyer can help you draft an employment contract that protects you from retaliation if you object. If Facebook refuses to sign the contract, walk away.
- emtel 6y ago
  Someone should make a museum of bizarre advice found on HN. No normal company is going to sign _any_ contract provided by a prospective full-time employee (except perhaps if you are a sought after celebrity being hired at a VP level or above), so it would just be a waste of time and money for someone to take your advice. Even if the hiring manager personally wanted to, there is no process for doing this. They don't have lawyers standing by to review such contracts. It would probably be hard to even find out who would have the authority to sign such a contract. Further, retaliating against whistle-blowers is already illegal, as is ordering employees to break laws, so I don't know what additional protection you imagine you would get from such a contract.
  - chmaynard 6y ago
    > No normal company is going to sign _any_ contract provided by a prospective full-time employee Agreed. To take my advice, you would need to be hired as a contractor/consultant. Normal companies do this all the time.
baby 6y ago
I’m obviously biased since I work there, but I had the exact same concerns before starting two years ago. In reality things are much more different that what HN makes it sound like. There’s all sorts of people, and not everyone agree, and much like the current climate in the US people are getting more and more polarized. I think it’s pretty awesome that everyone in the company is free to express themselves and debate and openly challenge management during Q&As and other events, but I also recognize that at some point the debates can turn toxic and I can see why we would want to avoid that. Once you realize how things work from the inside, you realize that the majority of people do want to make the world a better place, and that it’s easy to pick on things that didn’t work quite well and forget all of the positive sides that social networks have brought to the world. You can tell me that I’m drinking the kool aid but IMO internally things are really not at all like HN likes to portray it everyday.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  I don't think the question is really about how the internal politics of Facebook work. The question is whether you should devote years of your limited working time and your talent to make the world a worse place to live in (which I think FB almost certainly does).
  - baby 6y ago
    And I’ll say that you’re entitled to your opinion. If you do think that, then indeed I would not recommend to join. If you are on the verge, like I was, then my advice is to join because you will be surprised to see that it’s not what you thought it was.
    - ciarannolan 6y ago
      It may not be what you think it was internally, but it's negative externalities are there for the world to see.
      - baby 6y ago
        What about the upsides?
ciarannolan 6y ago
Do what you know is right. What you can live with and be proud of. It sounds like, from reading your comment a couple times, you know what is right but are tempted to ignore that and take the cash.
jballer 6y ago
I work at FB. I wouldn’t want to be working alongside people who think I’m a mercenary abdicating my moral precepts. And I wouldn’t expect that of my colleagues. So my guess is that you could get away with it easily, but you‘d be doing a disservice to yourself and your team.
- throwitawayfb 6y ago
  No, I certainly wouldn't think of my coworkers as mercenaries for hire, as that's a very simplistic worldview that I don't subscribe to. My net concern is: Will me working at FB be a net good, neutral, or bad for society? I'm fine with neutral, I just don't want it to be a net bad.
  - evgen 6y ago
    I think it is somewhat clear at this point that it is net bad. While I cannot comment on the claims made by some FB employees rising to defend their own moral choices I can say that I left FB when the consequences of my work on personal privacy could no longer be ignored. Luckily for me (I guess...) this was before it became clear that there was also the long-term destructive effect that FB has on democracy and civil society to deal with, but I think you should know that working there is always going to involve compromising your morals and ethics. You and your co-workers will be surrounded by a lot of motivational posters and routinely be told how your work is serving some nebulous positive benefit, but it will be a lie. I have worked for a lot of start-ups, including several that grew to become significant giants in their segment of the internet. Facebook has been the only one I worked at where there was a group of employees whose job was to create posters to hang up in all of the offices telling everyone else how important and worthwhile it was to work at FB -- looking back I think this level of internal propaganda should have been a warning sign.
- 3131s 6y ago
  > abdicating my moral precepts Sounds like there's nothing left to abdicate.
tanilama 6y ago
Not intense at all. As a screw in the Facebook machine, your significance is trivial. This is true regardless of your intention. Get over the ethnical drama I would say. Big tech is about as ethnical as banks. In another word, the companies don't care, and they are probably not.
skinkestek 6y ago
I'm actually in a different position: I used to loathe Facebook and like Google. These days both seems about the same. Facebooks policy to leave people alone deeply resonates with me even though I still dislike them intensely for what they did to WhatsApp. And for what it is worth, Facebook unlike Google hasn't insulted me for a decade with the ads they show.
kelnos 6y ago
> Unfortunately, I have to play the hand I'm dealt. Usually you see someone say something like this when they're presented with truly awful options. Seeing it used to refer to a $400k comp package is a bit jarring. And if you've made it through FB's hiring process and they've given you an attractive offer, I find it hard to believe you don't have other options that don't involve a big ethical quandary, or wouldn't if you interviewed around more.
fblifeadvice645 6y ago
As someone who also feels they’re evil (left 5+ years ago), I will grant that it’s not all bad like many here like to think. I imagine many small businesses and nonprofits derive a lot of value from their community building and targeted advertising, which is (maybe) a good thing. That being said, it’s a good idea to understand why the pay is so high (and it’s not because they’re nice people who only want the best for their employees): You will be expected to leave moral qualms at the door. This an unwritten rule at many companies, but Facebook had to write it. That says something. You will be expected to work for it. Hard. The people I know at Facebook easily put in 1.5-2x the hours I do at a FAANG-ish (late nights and weekends seem to be the norm), but get paid roughly 1.5-2x what I do. If that’s a tradeoff you’re willing to make, go for it. I however am making more money than I know what to do with, and thus value all the time I’m not working (hobbies, travel, side projects, etc) way more than the money I’d make from working during that time. At the end of the day you aren’t going to singlehandedly destroy the fabric of society all that much in your first year, so you’re fine making the above sacrifices for a year or two for some quick cash then fucking off to pursue some real interests, go for it. But I sincerely warn you against sacrificing too much of your life (youth especially) and morals for money —- it really isn’t as valuable as it’s cracked up to be.

trhway 6y ago

Don't sell yourself that cheap, ask for 600k. Once you get it, your doubts will disappear just like by magic.

bendoernberg 6y ago

How much less would you make working at another, less evil company?

throwitawayfb 6y ago
Unknown. No other company has recruited me and made me an offer.

jgacook 6y ago

If you're being offered a $400K comp package I can say with a lot of certainty that you have not been dealt a hand and are, in fact, a highly skilled worker with a great many options for employment, so sincere congratulations on your success! It's therefore hard to see how taking this offer would not be choosing to sell your ethics for money and success, given that you could likely land a well paid job anywhere.

chmaynard 6y ago

Consult a lawyer for advice on the legal implications of being directed to work on projects that either violate the law or your own ethical principles. The lawyer can help you draft an employment contract that protects you from retaliation if you object. If Facebook refuses to sign the contract, walk away.

emtel 6y ago
Someone should make a museum of bizarre advice found on HN. No normal company is going to sign _any_ contract provided by a prospective full-time employee (except perhaps if you are a sought after celebrity being hired at a VP level or above), so it would just be a waste of time and money for someone to take your advice. Even if the hiring manager personally wanted to, there is no process for doing this. They don't have lawyers standing by to review such contracts. It would probably be hard to even find out who would have the authority to sign such a contract. Further, retaliating against whistle-blowers is already illegal, as is ordering employees to break laws, so I don't know what additional protection you imagine you would get from such a contract.
- chmaynard 6y ago
  > No normal company is going to sign _any_ contract provided by a prospective full-time employee Agreed. To take my advice, you would need to be hired as a contractor/consultant. Normal companies do this all the time.

baby 6y ago

I’m obviously biased since I work there, but I had the exact same concerns before starting two years ago. In reality things are much more different that what HN makes it sound like. There’s all sorts of people, and not everyone agree, and much like the current climate in the US people are getting more and more polarized. I think it’s pretty awesome that everyone in the company is free to express themselves and debate and openly challenge management during Q&As and other events, but I also recognize that at some point the debates can turn toxic and I can see why we would want to avoid that. Once you realize how things work from the inside, you realize that the majority of people do want to make the world a better place, and that it’s easy to pick on things that didn’t work quite well and forget all of the positive sides that social networks have brought to the world. You can tell me that I’m drinking the kool aid but IMO internally things are really not at all like HN likes to portray it everyday.

ciarannolan 6y ago
I don't think the question is really about how the internal politics of Facebook work. The question is whether you should devote years of your limited working time and your talent to make the world a worse place to live in (which I think FB almost certainly does).
- baby 6y ago
  And I’ll say that you’re entitled to your opinion. If you do think that, then indeed I would not recommend to join. If you are on the verge, like I was, then my advice is to join because you will be surprised to see that it’s not what you thought it was.
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    It may not be what you think it was internally, but it's negative externalities are there for the world to see.
    - baby 6y ago
      What about the upsides?

ciarannolan 6y ago

Do what you know is right. What you can live with and be proud of. It sounds like, from reading your comment a couple times, you know what is right but are tempted to ignore that and take the cash.

jballer 6y ago

I work at FB. I wouldn’t want to be working alongside people who think I’m a mercenary abdicating my moral precepts. And I wouldn’t expect that of my colleagues. So my guess is that you could get away with it easily, but you‘d be doing a disservice to yourself and your team.

throwitawayfb 6y ago
No, I certainly wouldn't think of my coworkers as mercenaries for hire, as that's a very simplistic worldview that I don't subscribe to. My net concern is: Will me working at FB be a net good, neutral, or bad for society? I'm fine with neutral, I just don't want it to be a net bad.
- evgen 6y ago
  I think it is somewhat clear at this point that it is net bad. While I cannot comment on the claims made by some FB employees rising to defend their own moral choices I can say that I left FB when the consequences of my work on personal privacy could no longer be ignored. Luckily for me (I guess...) this was before it became clear that there was also the long-term destructive effect that FB has on democracy and civil society to deal with, but I think you should know that working there is always going to involve compromising your morals and ethics. You and your co-workers will be surrounded by a lot of motivational posters and routinely be told how your work is serving some nebulous positive benefit, but it will be a lie. I have worked for a lot of start-ups, including several that grew to become significant giants in their segment of the internet. Facebook has been the only one I worked at where there was a group of employees whose job was to create posters to hang up in all of the offices telling everyone else how important and worthwhile it was to work at FB -- looking back I think this level of internal propaganda should have been a warning sign.
3131s 6y ago
> abdicating my moral precepts Sounds like there's nothing left to abdicate.

tanilama 6y ago

Not intense at all. As a screw in the Facebook machine, your significance is trivial. This is true regardless of your intention. Get over the ethnical drama I would say. Big tech is about as ethnical as banks. In another word, the companies don't care, and they are probably not.

skinkestek 6y ago

I'm actually in a different position: I used to loathe Facebook and like Google. These days both seems about the same. Facebooks policy to leave people alone deeply resonates with me even though I still dislike them intensely for what they did to WhatsApp. And for what it is worth, Facebook unlike Google hasn't insulted me for a decade with the ads they show.

kelnos 6y ago

> Unfortunately, I have to play the hand I'm dealt. Usually you see someone say something like this when they're presented with truly awful options. Seeing it used to refer to a $400k comp package is a bit jarring. And if you've made it through FB's hiring process and they've given you an attractive offer, I find it hard to believe you don't have other options that don't involve a big ethical quandary, or wouldn't if you interviewed around more.

fblifeadvice645 6y ago

As someone who also feels they’re evil (left 5+ years ago), I will grant that it’s not all bad like many here like to think. I imagine many small businesses and nonprofits derive a lot of value from their community building and targeted advertising, which is (maybe) a good thing. That being said, it’s a good idea to understand why the pay is so high (and it’s not because they’re nice people who only want the best for their employees): You will be expected to leave moral qualms at the door. This an unwritten rule at many companies, but Facebook had to write it. That says something. You will be expected to work for it. Hard. The people I know at Facebook easily put in 1.5-2x the hours I do at a FAANG-ish (late nights and weekends seem to be the norm), but get paid roughly 1.5-2x what I do. If that’s a tradeoff you’re willing to make, go for it. I however am making more money than I know what to do with, and thus value all the time I’m not working (hobbies, travel, side projects, etc) way more than the money I’d make from working during that time. At the end of the day you aren’t going to singlehandedly destroy the fabric of society all that much in your first year, so you’re fine making the above sacrifices for a year or two for some quick cash then fucking off to pursue some real interests, go for it. But I sincerely warn you against sacrificing too much of your life (youth especially) and morals for money —- it really isn’t as valuable as it’s cracked up to be.