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Saying that America has deeply rooted problems is not pessimism, it's realism. Not believing in people's ability to make it better is pessimism.

by jolux 6y ago

trentnix 6y ago
And in that quote, Zinn explicitly mentions he doesn’t believe in “people’s ability to make it better”: I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy
- jolux 6y ago
  You're misreading him. He's talking about the ability of an ideology and a system to correct itself, not that of the people it rules to choose a different society for themselves.
  - trentnix 6y ago
    He is saying a revolution is required because the people can’t change things. I’m not sure, short of outright nihilism, how one could be more pessimistic that that.
    - jolux 6y ago
      He's casting doubt that the problems can be solved through voting alone.
      - trentnix 6y ago
        Yes. That's pessimistic.
        jolux 6y ago
        About voting, sure. Not about the country at large.
ImprobableTruth 6y ago
He's literally saying that he believes that American democracy is fundamentally flawed and that it can't be fixed, therefore necessitating a revolution.
- jolux 6y ago
  He said it's not self-correcting, meaning people have to take charge to build the country that they need and want. That's not the same as saying it can't be fixed.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    No, he says he doesn’t believe in the “self-correcting character of American Democracy.” That doesn’t just mean that people need to fix it, it means he thinks they need to operate outside the Democratic process to fix it.
    - jolux 6y ago
      You're overfocusing on the "American Democracy" part and missing what he means about self-correction. Being an active and engaged citizen does mean being engaged beyond the ballot box. What specifically do you believe he was advocating that you find immoral or distasteful?
  - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
    >He said it's not self-correcting, meaning people have to take charge to build the country that they need and want. Yeah, and he believes that this has to happen through a revolution, because the democratic system can't fix itself _even if the people vote and try to change laws to do so_. >That's not the same as saying it can't be fixed. Maybe you call tearing down a system and replacing it wither another 'fixing', but I (and likely most others) certainly don't. At the very least, it's a hell of a lot more pessimistic than reformism.
    - jolux 6y ago
      Reform and revolution are a false dichotomy. Social movements and popular unrest effect the electoral process significantly.

Saying that America has deeply rooted problems is not pessimism, it's realism. Not believing in people's ability to make it better is pessimism.

by jolux 6y ago

Saying that America has deeply rooted problems is not pessimism, it's realism. Not believing in people's ability to make it better is pessimism.

trentnix 6y ago

And in that quote, Zinn explicitly mentions he doesn’t believe in “people’s ability to make it better”: I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy

jolux 6y ago
You're misreading him. He's talking about the ability of an ideology and a system to correct itself, not that of the people it rules to choose a different society for themselves.
- trentnix 6y ago
  He is saying a revolution is required because the people can’t change things. I’m not sure, short of outright nihilism, how one could be more pessimistic that that.
  - jolux 6y ago
    He's casting doubt that the problems can be solved through voting alone.
    - trentnix 6y ago
      Yes. That's pessimistic.
      - jolux 6y ago
        About voting, sure. Not about the country at large.

ImprobableTruth 6y ago

He's literally saying that he believes that American democracy is fundamentally flawed and that it can't be fixed, therefore necessitating a revolution.

jolux 6y ago
He said it's not self-correcting, meaning people have to take charge to build the country that they need and want. That's not the same as saying it can't be fixed.
- rayiner 6y ago
  No, he says he doesn’t believe in the “self-correcting character of American Democracy.” That doesn’t just mean that people need to fix it, it means he thinks they need to operate outside the Democratic process to fix it.
  - jolux 6y ago
    You're overfocusing on the "American Democracy" part and missing what he means about self-correction. Being an active and engaged citizen does mean being engaged beyond the ballot box. What specifically do you believe he was advocating that you find immoral or distasteful?
- ImprobableTruth 6y ago
  >He said it's not self-correcting, meaning people have to take charge to build the country that they need and want. Yeah, and he believes that this has to happen through a revolution, because the democratic system can't fix itself _even if the people vote and try to change laws to do so_. >That's not the same as saying it can't be fixed. Maybe you call tearing down a system and replacing it wither another 'fixing', but I (and likely most others) certainly don't. At the very least, it's a hell of a lot more pessimistic than reformism.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Reform and revolution are a false dichotomy. Social movements and popular unrest effect the electoral process significantly.