7 ms·

Well, if you want a far-left and deeply pessimistic interpretation of history, he's you guy.

tomdell 6y ago
That was my point of view when I considered myself a libertarian. If you actually give the stuff a chance and read it - it’s just facts, often untold and unknown. It did shift my views far to the left, but the only thing holding me back from that was ignorance of the truth.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  As a revisionist, the great thing about Zinn is that he told the lesser known side of a lot of stories. However it seemed like he had a tendency to put a ton of weight on non-objective primary sources. Just like it's healthy to question and criticize the traditional narratives, I don't think every "fact" in A People's History should be taken at face value.
amirkdv 6y ago
> To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. [...] If we remember those times and places–and there are so many–where people have behaved magnificently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory. [0] Doesn't sound like a "deeply pessimistic interpretation of history" to me. [0]: You Can't be Neutral on a Moving Train, Howard Zinn
the_benno 6y ago
This seems like a kneejerk response to a strawman version of Zinn. He's a pretty middle-of-the-road academic politically speaking and doesn't get anywhere near what I would call far-left. As for "pessimistic", well, I'd just say that the facts don't care about your feelings. Powerful institutions are (generally speaking) violent and uncaring towards those without power; ignoring that fact does us all a disservice.
- trentnix 6y ago
  Zinn's own words (which are quoted in the article) confirm the parent's point: From that moment on, I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy. I was a radical, believing that something fundamental was wrong in this country . . . something rotten at the root. The situation required not just a new president or new laws, but an uprooting of the old order, the introduction of a new kind of society—cooperative, peaceful, egalitarian.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Saying that America has deeply rooted problems is not pessimism, it's realism. Not believing in people's ability to make it better is pessimism.
    - trentnix 6y ago
      And in that quote, Zinn explicitly mentions he doesn’t believe in “people’s ability to make it better”: I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy
      - jolux 6y ago
        You're misreading him. He's talking about the ability of an ideology and a system to correct itself, not that of the people it rules to choose a different society for themselves.
        trentnix 6y ago
        He is saying a revolution is required because the people can’t change things. I’m not sure, short of outright nihilism, how one could be more pessimistic that that.
        jolux 6y ago
        He's casting doubt that the problems can be solved through voting alone.
novajeeper 6y ago
Yep, I'd rather the rosy Disney-fied version of history that hides the truth behind indigenous/minority struggles and keeps the impoverished in their place.
peterthehacker 6y ago
Did you even read his book? Calling it “far-left” or “pessimistic” is pretty far off. If you have critiques then present them clearly with evidence.
iandanforth 6y ago
I absolutely agree. I am as lefty as it gets but having this ideological indoctrination shoved down my throat in highschool was an awful experience. It didn't feel constructive, it didn't feel educational, it felt like an uninterrupted lambasting. It totally failed to persuade and left an awful taste in my mouth that decades have not erased.
- tclancy 6y ago
  Where did you go to high school that taught this?
  - iandanforth 6y ago
    Mountain View, CA

That was my point of view when I considered myself a libertarian. If you actually give the stuff a chance and read it - it’s just facts, often untold and unknown. It did shift my views far to the left, but the only thing holding me back from that was ignorance of the truth.

Rebelgecko 6y ago
As a revisionist, the great thing about Zinn is that he told the lesser known side of a lot of stories. However it seemed like he had a tendency to put a ton of weight on non-objective primary sources. Just like it's healthy to question and criticize the traditional narratives, I don't think every "fact" in A People's History should be taken at face value.

amirkdv 6y ago

> To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. [...] If we remember those times and places–and there are so many–where people have behaved magnificently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory. [0] Doesn't sound like a "deeply pessimistic interpretation of history" to me. [0]: You Can't be Neutral on a Moving Train, Howard Zinn

the_benno 6y ago

This seems like a kneejerk response to a strawman version of Zinn. He's a pretty middle-of-the-road academic politically speaking and doesn't get anywhere near what I would call far-left. As for "pessimistic", well, I'd just say that the facts don't care about your feelings. Powerful institutions are (generally speaking) violent and uncaring towards those without power; ignoring that fact does us all a disservice.

trentnix 6y ago
Zinn's own words (which are quoted in the article) confirm the parent's point: From that moment on, I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy. I was a radical, believing that something fundamental was wrong in this country . . . something rotten at the root. The situation required not just a new president or new laws, but an uprooting of the old order, the introduction of a new kind of society—cooperative, peaceful, egalitarian.
- jolux 6y ago
  Saying that America has deeply rooted problems is not pessimism, it's realism. Not believing in people's ability to make it better is pessimism.
  - trentnix 6y ago
    And in that quote, Zinn explicitly mentions he doesn’t believe in “people’s ability to make it better”: I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy
    - jolux 6y ago
      You're misreading him. He's talking about the ability of an ideology and a system to correct itself, not that of the people it rules to choose a different society for themselves.
      - trentnix 6y ago
        He is saying a revolution is required because the people can’t change things. I’m not sure, short of outright nihilism, how one could be more pessimistic that that.
        jolux 6y ago
        He's casting doubt that the problems can be solved through voting alone.

novajeeper 6y ago

Yep, I'd rather the rosy Disney-fied version of history that hides the truth behind indigenous/minority struggles and keeps the impoverished in their place.

peterthehacker 6y ago

Did you even read his book? Calling it “far-left” or “pessimistic” is pretty far off. If you have critiques then present them clearly with evidence.

iandanforth 6y ago

I absolutely agree. I am as lefty as it gets but having this ideological indoctrination shoved down my throat in highschool was an awful experience. It didn't feel constructive, it didn't feel educational, it felt like an uninterrupted lambasting. It totally failed to persuade and left an awful taste in my mouth that decades have not erased.

tclancy 6y ago
Where did you go to high school that taught this?
- iandanforth 6y ago
  Mountain View, CA