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Oh the horror stories I've heard: - a software house whose biggest client found out that they were 75% of their business. So they just stopped paying their bi

by edw519 16y ago

Oh the horror stories I've heard: - a software house whose biggest client found out that they were 75% of their business. So they just stopped paying their bills and waited them out until the source code ended up in receivership. - A contractor that bid a time and material job, deployed it successfully, and got paid. He was then called back in to change a few things for which he was not paid because, "We paid for it to be right in the first place." - a local trucker that made 500 successful deliveries buy screwed one up, so he got paid nothing. He blocked the parking lot with his truck in order to get paid. (The company would rather pay him that get the bad press from the local newspaper.) - bounced checks, checks without signature, checks where the 2 amounts didn't match, checks with next year's date: too many to mention Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full. I have never resorted to something like this and I hope I never do. Has anyone ever tried this? What are the ramifications, financial, business, and legal?

crikli 16y ago
"Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full." If you have to resort to this practice, you have already failed. Tripping the time bomb will get you sued, not paid, and you will lose. You may even go to jail.
- icey 16y ago
  I think it's a matter of perspective. We do this with enterprise software, except we don't call it a "time bomb". "We've deployed your installation with a provisional, expiring license. We'll issue your permanent license once you've confirmed the software is installed and configured to your liking." Then when they send the check, we send the license. It's never been a problem for any of the parties because we've always been very up front about how the process works. No surprises.
  - crikli 16y ago
    Sure...I guess when I hear "time bomb" I think of something that wipes source code or data. Something that alters the bits and bytes. That's the thing that will cause you a world of hurt. What you're talking about is of course totally legit.
    - artmageddon 16y ago
      Yeah, using that kind of "time bomb" would be ridiculously bad. I've always looked at that as breaking into the premises and manipulating / burning the books. I sold a piece of software to a local business a few months ago that works on expiring dates. Each payment I get from the owner pushes back the expiration date until I get the full amount, at which point it's theirs forever(it's worth mentioning that so far things are great). We didn't agree to a contract for the work I did, so I can only hope I don't get screwed over some how in the future. It was my first freelance job though, so I guess there's a lesson to be learned.
    - elai 16y ago
      That's just distasteful to delete data. Just encrypt it with a public key.
  - kd0amg 16y ago
    And with consumer software, it's called "shareware."
  - tom_b 16y ago
    We use an open source product with a paid support contract. I took over admin of this tool last year and was shocked to find that we get a license year-to-year for the product based on renewing our support contract. So, a free tool has a provisional, expiring license. I think this is kind of bull, personally. Especially given that we pay a 5 figure support contract in an effort to support dev efforts on the product. We generate minimal support requests. I recently found a bug in their product, their first line of support couldn't figure it out even though I sent them a detailed explanation along with a pointer to their source code where the fix should be. Maybe next year, I'll just fix my own bugs and not bother with the support contract . . .
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > Tripping the time bomb will get you sued, not paid, and you will lose. Not if it was in the original contract.
  - kovar 16y ago
    I guarantee you that a halfway decent lawyer would still find a way to sue you and win. Any lawyer could find a way to sue you and the ensuing legal scuffle would consume more money than you made on the project. Just one of many points they'd raise - once the client pays, that kill switch is still present and could be tripped by the developer, the developer's employer, a hacker, or accidentally.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - gte910h 16y ago
      2 things: 1> When you make time limited software: You provide a different version that's just the demo - killswitch for the final delivery after final payment. 2> You don't delete their data ever. That's their data. It's their work. Nothing can make it your work. Use of the demo to make their work can be an implicit acceptance of any contract making them pay you, but don't ever screw with their data/work.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Time limited software is a key to good demo versions for in house enterprise-ware.
angrycoder 16y ago
I was subcontracting a few years ago and the parent company asked me to code a kill switch into the web app because the client was not paying their bills. I told the parent company they could just give me a call and I could shut off the web server at any time. They said they would rather just have me code the switch because they didn't want to involve me in the situation. I thought that was nice of them. I don't know if they ever had to use the switch.
andymoe 16y ago
In california, it's like 20 bucks[1] to put a lien on someone's property, business etc. Attorneys do this all the time as well as just turn the bill over to an agency to collect. http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/collectlien.htm http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/collectlien... EDIT: Yes, it's lien. Proofreading, spelling and slowing down. It's life long struggle :)
- sp332 16y ago
  It's a "lien". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien /pedantic
damoncali 16y ago
No need for trickery. Just don't hand over the keys until you've been paid. This is all handled with relative ease with contracts.
aplusbi 16y ago
The "time bomb" is mentioned in the video - handing over copyright on payment.
sixtofour 16y ago
"Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full." You could do that legally, if you made an expiring license mechanism, and included it in the contract.

by edw519 16y ago

crikli 16y ago

"Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full." If you have to resort to this practice, you have already failed. Tripping the time bomb will get you sued, not paid, and you will lose. You may even go to jail.

icey 16y ago
I think it's a matter of perspective. We do this with enterprise software, except we don't call it a "time bomb". "We've deployed your installation with a provisional, expiring license. We'll issue your permanent license once you've confirmed the software is installed and configured to your liking." Then when they send the check, we send the license. It's never been a problem for any of the parties because we've always been very up front about how the process works. No surprises.
- crikli 16y ago
  Sure...I guess when I hear "time bomb" I think of something that wipes source code or data. Something that alters the bits and bytes. That's the thing that will cause you a world of hurt. What you're talking about is of course totally legit.
  - artmageddon 16y ago
    Yeah, using that kind of "time bomb" would be ridiculously bad. I've always looked at that as breaking into the premises and manipulating / burning the books. I sold a piece of software to a local business a few months ago that works on expiring dates. Each payment I get from the owner pushes back the expiration date until I get the full amount, at which point it's theirs forever(it's worth mentioning that so far things are great). We didn't agree to a contract for the work I did, so I can only hope I don't get screwed over some how in the future. It was my first freelance job though, so I guess there's a lesson to be learned.
  - elai 16y ago
    That's just distasteful to delete data. Just encrypt it with a public key.
- kd0amg 16y ago
  And with consumer software, it's called "shareware."
- tom_b 16y ago
  We use an open source product with a paid support contract. I took over admin of this tool last year and was shocked to find that we get a license year-to-year for the product based on renewing our support contract. So, a free tool has a provisional, expiring license. I think this is kind of bull, personally. Especially given that we pay a 5 figure support contract in an effort to support dev efforts on the product. We generate minimal support requests. I recently found a bug in their product, their first line of support couldn't figure it out even though I sent them a detailed explanation along with a pointer to their source code where the fix should be. Maybe next year, I'll just fix my own bugs and not bother with the support contract . . .
cabalamat 16y ago
> Tripping the time bomb will get you sued, not paid, and you will lose. Not if it was in the original contract.
- kovar 16y ago
  I guarantee you that a halfway decent lawyer would still find a way to sue you and win. Any lawyer could find a way to sue you and the ensuing legal scuffle would consume more money than you made on the project. Just one of many points they'd raise - once the client pays, that kill switch is still present and could be tripped by the developer, the developer's employer, a hacker, or accidentally.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - gte910h 16y ago
    2 things: 1> When you make time limited software: You provide a different version that's just the demo - killswitch for the final delivery after final payment. 2> You don't delete their data ever. That's their data. It's their work. Nothing can make it your work. Use of the demo to make their work can be an implicit acceptance of any contract making them pay you, but don't ever screw with their data/work.
gte910h 16y ago
Time limited software is a key to good demo versions for in house enterprise-ware.

angrycoder 16y ago

I was subcontracting a few years ago and the parent company asked me to code a kill switch into the web app because the client was not paying their bills. I told the parent company they could just give me a call and I could shut off the web server at any time. They said they would rather just have me code the switch because they didn't want to involve me in the situation. I thought that was nice of them. I don't know if they ever had to use the switch.

andymoe 16y ago

In california, it's like 20 bucks[1] to put a lien on someone's property, business etc. Attorneys do this all the time as well as just turn the bill over to an agency to collect. http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/collectlien.htm http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/collectlien... EDIT: Yes, it's lien. Proofreading, spelling and slowing down. It's life long struggle :)

sp332 16y ago
It's a "lien". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien /pedantic

damoncali 16y ago

No need for trickery. Just don't hand over the keys until you've been paid. This is all handled with relative ease with contracts.

aplusbi 16y ago

The "time bomb" is mentioned in the video - handing over copyright on payment.

sixtofour 16y ago

"Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full." You could do that legally, if you made an expiring license mechanism, and included it in the contract.