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> For those of you that want to try out the AI noise removal capabilities but aren’t ready to upgrade to an RTX GPU yet, we have also patched RTX Voice with sup

> For those of you that want to try out the AI noise removal capabilities but aren’t ready to upgrade to an RTX GPU yet, we have also patched RTX Voice with support for NVIDIA GeForce GTX GPUs. Though, of course, your mileage may vary on older cards. That's a strange way to say "yeah we admit that we were just blocking older GPUs in the installer and you guys noticed so decided to stop."

motoboi 6y ago
Well it kinds looks like your car manufacturer stating in the manual that your car cannot tow. You know it just a matter of installing one, but they basically don't want to spend time supporting something they have no interest in.
- bluGill 6y ago
  In the case of cars often a car can tow, but it shouldn't. I know someone who burned out a transmission because the trailer was overweight (in this case it was a truck that the manual said max tow weight was 1/4th what he was towing). I haven't seen it myself, but my EMT friends have had to respond to cases where someone was towing I work for John Deere, it is well known that ECU code can change the horse power of our tractors. What isn't as well known is the tractors with higher horsepower ECUs have more warranty work, and that is a case where we engineer the system for the change (there is more than an ECU changed in getting higher horsepower if you buy it that way from us because we don't want warranty claims) If you know what the real limits of your system are you will sometimes discover the stated limits are less than the real limits. However other times the stated limits are there for a reason.
  - andybak 6y ago
    Give people the facts. Let them decide but make sure you're protected from supporting idiots. Better than coming out of it looking like the evil dudes. EDIT being most well known outside your sector for suing your customers is generally a bad look
    - G4E 6y ago
      It sadly doesn't work like that. Idiots are idiots. "You sold me this truck, and it doesn't work anymore. - Well, we stated that you shouldn't do what you did... - It doeesnnn't work !!!" Ensue time, energy and money lost to defend yourself against idiots who don't listen. Edit : I don't know anything about trucks or John Deere. But you can see this type of "artificial" limitation with simple unlock pretty often. For example the cpu overclocking community : the manufacturer doesn't officialy support overclocking, but they give hints and some advice if you want to do it anyway. You fry your cpu, you're on your own.
    - scatters 6y ago
      Why should you care how you're known outside your sector? People outside your sector aren't your customers, by definition.
    - ShaniceWilliams 6y ago
      a really bad look lol. going to put them out of business once everyone is aware of how they don't take responsibility and blame their users
  - alfalfasprout 6y ago
    idk... John Deere is notorious for DRMing their tractors so that even out of warranty modifications or repairs are impossible. It should be up to the user to be able to do the modifications they like and it's simply then up to the manufacturer whether to honor the warranty if the device/tractor has been significantly tampered with.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      I'm not going to comment much except to point out that it is fraud if you do such a thing and then sell/trade it in - the mechanical damage is done and the buyer should know - but has no way to know. I'll also point out that you probably were mad at VW for making the types of modifications that you claim anyone should be able to make.
      - R0b0t1 6y ago
        Under US law the burden is on the manufacturer to show that a modification impacted the functioning of the device/machine. It's kind of funny, because parts DRM could be seen as the manufacturer breaking the device when a replacement could have succeeded.
      - UncleEntity 6y ago
        Pretty sure nobody is going to go after me for fraud for putting non-VW heads on the `73 bus I used to drive around in...
        floatingatoll 6y ago
        If you try to sell it as an "unmodified engine" without mentioning that in writing, they absolutely could. They might not, but if it breaks in some manner that could remotely be connected to them, they could. If the tractor is rated for 50 whatever and you chip it to run at 60 whatever and sell it without saying that you'd ever done so, then if the buyer finds damage caused by overheating or who knows what from running at 60 whatever on a 50-rated-and-softlocked engine, then you absolutely could be held liable for failing to indicate the non-factory modifications you made to the engine, even if you later 'removed' them. (Usual disclaimer: I am not your lawyer, I will not compile citations for your review, please seek legal counsel before taking action based on my comments.)
  - mdoms 6y ago
    It's just an analogy dude
  - omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
    I wouldn't go so far as to say cars shouldn't tow, but people can and do go well beyond both the manufacturer's rated capacity and what's dictated by common sense, and as a result manufacturers are extremely conservative.
  - plorg 6y ago
    Often it's also for regulatory reasons, particularly around emissions. Larger engines require more complex emission controls, so often an engine (including e.g. a JD) will be sold with a nameplate of say 74hp and chip-limited. It could very likely get its maximum efficiency at that output. We have a vendor that sells equipment with a built-in engine, and we use some of the power from that engine to run other equipment. Under Tier-4 emissions requirements the vendor moved to all-digital controls, which have a much tighter control on power output. Our customers are annoyed that they can't get the same amount of power out of the new equipment. Our vendor tells us, unofficially, you could tweak the ECU and get more power out, but we're not going to do that to equipment we're selling, and we're not going to tell our customers to do that, because it would violate the legal restrictions on The operation of that equipment.
  - izacus 6y ago
    And in many cases it's just a certification issue - my Mazda is rated to tow things while the US model with exact same transmission and engine isn't.
- hnarn 6y ago
  It’s actually nothing like that because nobody’s expecting Nvidia to support the functionality, just not block the software from even trying. You could solve it by literally just adding a disclaimer pop up that “this functionality is not supported on your GPU, would you like to try anyway?”.
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    > nobody’s expecting Nvidia to support the functionality I 100% guarantee you there are people who will call Nvidia support (yes, they will literally dial +1-800-797-6530 on a phone like it's 1972) to complain about broadcast. Some people are unbelievably entitled, and think that no matter what it says on the box if they paid good money for it then it should by God do whatever stupid ass thing they want it to do.
    - hnarn 6y ago
      So? This is why service desk exists. And I say that as someone who previously worked in one. The key is that something being unsupported is clearly stated in the software and enforced by everyone in the organization. If done correctly you’ll have no PR penalty as the majority will take the party of the organization, and a PR benefit if it works for people even when they know it “shouldn’t”.
RL_Quine 6y ago
Yeah, I patched it myself day one, it was literally a flag in the installer. What colossally unpleasant behaviour.
- stemcc 6y ago
  Any tips for locating which flag in the installer is the one to flip the bit?
  - bmlzootown 6y ago
    This. Could it be just as simple for the Broadcast app? Because I use my RX5600XT for games, and my older GTX1060 for streaming/recording/RTX Voice.
ryneandal 6y ago
I don't know the specifics of the tech requirements, and I certainly don't condone giving nvidia the benefit of the doubt, but it may be due to efficacy of the hardware. Non-RTX cards are technically capable of DXR as well, but the lack of specialized silicon makes it a nonstarter. I've used RTX Voice for months now, and coworkers have noticed issues and artifacts on occasion, I imagine they occur more often on non-RTX cards.
- pstrateman 6y ago
  You can change a single bit in RTX voice and it works on other cards. Seems to pretty heavily imply that it was an entirely artificial requirement. Also it's NVidia, all of the home grade cards are artificially limited by drivers.
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    > Also it's NVidia, all of the home grade cards are artificially limited by drivers. In some ways yes, but in the way this is usually meant (DP flops) this hasn't been true for many generations. GeForce chips simply only have one DP ALU for every 32 SP ALUs, while the HPC accelerators have one DP ALU for every two SP ALUs.
    - jitl 6y ago
      The parent is probably referring to the Quadro (cad workstation) vs Geforce (gaming) split, not the Geforce vs HPC. There's a history of limiting Geforce performance for CAD workflows in software, and flashing the firmware of Geforce cards to unlock much better "professional" performance.
      - dogma1138 6y ago
        The flashing didn't increase performance it allowed you to use Quadro certified drivers which are available now for Geforce (minus the official certification and support iirc) too (i think they are called creator drivers or something like that). This also impacted only a tiny subset of CAD/professional imaging products which were out of reach of consumers anyhow often due to the massive PITA and cost that was certifying your hardware and drivers for those products. Quadro wasn't running faster in Blender, 3DSM not even AutoDesk (in fact they were often slower due to lower frequencies), the apps were it made a difference when those drivers were finally released for Geforce and Titan cards were only the likes of Catia and Siemens NX hardly consumer/prosumer software. I'm sorry but if you are a 7 figure a year license holder for Siemens NX spending $2000-3000 extra per on each GPU every 3 year isn't going to be an issue, not to mention that you aren't going to be using Geforce GPUs anyhow as the drivers are still not certified (which is required for the industry) and even more likely you'll be buying certified workstations from the likes of HP and Dell.
ponker 6y ago
Is there anything wrong with this? You're only entitled to what you bought or were promised at the time of purchase (and security updates). If the manufacturer comes along later and improves your product there aren't any obligations to extend that generosity as far as technically possible.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  "This can only work on new cards" or "we're only whitelisting new cards" aren't necessarily dick moves but saying "This can only work on new cards" when it's really "we're only whitelisting new cards" is.
babypuncher 6y ago
They allow ray tracing on older cards too, but it doesn't run well thanks to the lack of dedicated ray tracing hardware. This AI noise reduction probably runs a lot better on newer cards with tensor cores, whereas older cards could see this feature eating into game performance if you use it while playing.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  iirc analysis of the utility indicated it was not using tensor features at all, which is why it was trivial to unlock on older cards.
tmaly 6y ago
wait so should this app be able to work with something like the RTX 2070?

motoboi 6y ago

Well it kinds looks like your car manufacturer stating in the manual that your car cannot tow. You know it just a matter of installing one, but they basically don't want to spend time supporting something they have no interest in.

bluGill 6y ago
In the case of cars often a car can tow, but it shouldn't. I know someone who burned out a transmission because the trailer was overweight (in this case it was a truck that the manual said max tow weight was 1/4th what he was towing). I haven't seen it myself, but my EMT friends have had to respond to cases where someone was towing I work for John Deere, it is well known that ECU code can change the horse power of our tractors. What isn't as well known is the tractors with higher horsepower ECUs have more warranty work, and that is a case where we engineer the system for the change (there is more than an ECU changed in getting higher horsepower if you buy it that way from us because we don't want warranty claims) If you know what the real limits of your system are you will sometimes discover the stated limits are less than the real limits. However other times the stated limits are there for a reason.
- andybak 6y ago
  Give people the facts. Let them decide but make sure you're protected from supporting idiots. Better than coming out of it looking like the evil dudes. EDIT being most well known outside your sector for suing your customers is generally a bad look
  - G4E 6y ago
    It sadly doesn't work like that. Idiots are idiots. "You sold me this truck, and it doesn't work anymore. - Well, we stated that you shouldn't do what you did... - It doeesnnn't work !!!" Ensue time, energy and money lost to defend yourself against idiots who don't listen. Edit : I don't know anything about trucks or John Deere. But you can see this type of "artificial" limitation with simple unlock pretty often. For example the cpu overclocking community : the manufacturer doesn't officialy support overclocking, but they give hints and some advice if you want to do it anyway. You fry your cpu, you're on your own.
  - scatters 6y ago
    Why should you care how you're known outside your sector? People outside your sector aren't your customers, by definition.
  - ShaniceWilliams 6y ago
    a really bad look lol. going to put them out of business once everyone is aware of how they don't take responsibility and blame their users
- alfalfasprout 6y ago
  idk... John Deere is notorious for DRMing their tractors so that even out of warranty modifications or repairs are impossible. It should be up to the user to be able to do the modifications they like and it's simply then up to the manufacturer whether to honor the warranty if the device/tractor has been significantly tampered with.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    I'm not going to comment much except to point out that it is fraud if you do such a thing and then sell/trade it in - the mechanical damage is done and the buyer should know - but has no way to know. I'll also point out that you probably were mad at VW for making the types of modifications that you claim anyone should be able to make.
    - R0b0t1 6y ago
      Under US law the burden is on the manufacturer to show that a modification impacted the functioning of the device/machine. It's kind of funny, because parts DRM could be seen as the manufacturer breaking the device when a replacement could have succeeded.
    - UncleEntity 6y ago
      Pretty sure nobody is going to go after me for fraud for putting non-VW heads on the `73 bus I used to drive around in...
      - floatingatoll 6y ago
        If you try to sell it as an "unmodified engine" without mentioning that in writing, they absolutely could. They might not, but if it breaks in some manner that could remotely be connected to them, they could. If the tractor is rated for 50 whatever and you chip it to run at 60 whatever and sell it without saying that you'd ever done so, then if the buyer finds damage caused by overheating or who knows what from running at 60 whatever on a 50-rated-and-softlocked engine, then you absolutely could be held liable for failing to indicate the non-factory modifications you made to the engine, even if you later 'removed' them. (Usual disclaimer: I am not your lawyer, I will not compile citations for your review, please seek legal counsel before taking action based on my comments.)
- mdoms 6y ago
  It's just an analogy dude
- omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
  I wouldn't go so far as to say cars shouldn't tow, but people can and do go well beyond both the manufacturer's rated capacity and what's dictated by common sense, and as a result manufacturers are extremely conservative.
- plorg 6y ago
  Often it's also for regulatory reasons, particularly around emissions. Larger engines require more complex emission controls, so often an engine (including e.g. a JD) will be sold with a nameplate of say 74hp and chip-limited. It could very likely get its maximum efficiency at that output. We have a vendor that sells equipment with a built-in engine, and we use some of the power from that engine to run other equipment. Under Tier-4 emissions requirements the vendor moved to all-digital controls, which have a much tighter control on power output. Our customers are annoyed that they can't get the same amount of power out of the new equipment. Our vendor tells us, unofficially, you could tweak the ECU and get more power out, but we're not going to do that to equipment we're selling, and we're not going to tell our customers to do that, because it would violate the legal restrictions on The operation of that equipment.
- izacus 6y ago
  And in many cases it's just a certification issue - my Mazda is rated to tow things while the US model with exact same transmission and engine isn't.
hnarn 6y ago
It’s actually nothing like that because nobody’s expecting Nvidia to support the functionality, just not block the software from even trying. You could solve it by literally just adding a disclaimer pop up that “this functionality is not supported on your GPU, would you like to try anyway?”.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  > nobody’s expecting Nvidia to support the functionality I 100% guarantee you there are people who will call Nvidia support (yes, they will literally dial +1-800-797-6530 on a phone like it's 1972) to complain about broadcast. Some people are unbelievably entitled, and think that no matter what it says on the box if they paid good money for it then it should by God do whatever stupid ass thing they want it to do.
  - hnarn 6y ago
    So? This is why service desk exists. And I say that as someone who previously worked in one. The key is that something being unsupported is clearly stated in the software and enforced by everyone in the organization. If done correctly you’ll have no PR penalty as the majority will take the party of the organization, and a PR benefit if it works for people even when they know it “shouldn’t”.

RL_Quine 6y ago

Yeah, I patched it myself day one, it was literally a flag in the installer. What colossally unpleasant behaviour.

stemcc 6y ago
Any tips for locating which flag in the installer is the one to flip the bit?
- bmlzootown 6y ago
  This. Could it be just as simple for the Broadcast app? Because I use my RX5600XT for games, and my older GTX1060 for streaming/recording/RTX Voice.

ryneandal 6y ago

I don't know the specifics of the tech requirements, and I certainly don't condone giving nvidia the benefit of the doubt, but it may be due to efficacy of the hardware. Non-RTX cards are technically capable of DXR as well, but the lack of specialized silicon makes it a nonstarter. I've used RTX Voice for months now, and coworkers have noticed issues and artifacts on occasion, I imagine they occur more often on non-RTX cards.

pstrateman 6y ago
You can change a single bit in RTX voice and it works on other cards. Seems to pretty heavily imply that it was an entirely artificial requirement. Also it's NVidia, all of the home grade cards are artificially limited by drivers.
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  > Also it's NVidia, all of the home grade cards are artificially limited by drivers. In some ways yes, but in the way this is usually meant (DP flops) this hasn't been true for many generations. GeForce chips simply only have one DP ALU for every 32 SP ALUs, while the HPC accelerators have one DP ALU for every two SP ALUs.
  - jitl 6y ago
    The parent is probably referring to the Quadro (cad workstation) vs Geforce (gaming) split, not the Geforce vs HPC. There's a history of limiting Geforce performance for CAD workflows in software, and flashing the firmware of Geforce cards to unlock much better "professional" performance.
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      The flashing didn't increase performance it allowed you to use Quadro certified drivers which are available now for Geforce (minus the official certification and support iirc) too (i think they are called creator drivers or something like that). This also impacted only a tiny subset of CAD/professional imaging products which were out of reach of consumers anyhow often due to the massive PITA and cost that was certifying your hardware and drivers for those products. Quadro wasn't running faster in Blender, 3DSM not even AutoDesk (in fact they were often slower due to lower frequencies), the apps were it made a difference when those drivers were finally released for Geforce and Titan cards were only the likes of Catia and Siemens NX hardly consumer/prosumer software. I'm sorry but if you are a 7 figure a year license holder for Siemens NX spending $2000-3000 extra per on each GPU every 3 year isn't going to be an issue, not to mention that you aren't going to be using Geforce GPUs anyhow as the drivers are still not certified (which is required for the industry) and even more likely you'll be buying certified workstations from the likes of HP and Dell.

ponker 6y ago

Is there anything wrong with this? You're only entitled to what you bought or were promised at the time of purchase (and security updates). If the manufacturer comes along later and improves your product there aren't any obligations to extend that generosity as far as technically possible.

zamadatix 6y ago
"This can only work on new cards" or "we're only whitelisting new cards" aren't necessarily dick moves but saying "This can only work on new cards" when it's really "we're only whitelisting new cards" is.

babypuncher 6y ago

They allow ray tracing on older cards too, but it doesn't run well thanks to the lack of dedicated ray tracing hardware. This AI noise reduction probably runs a lot better on newer cards with tensor cores, whereas older cards could see this feature eating into game performance if you use it while playing.

throwaway2048 6y ago
iirc analysis of the utility indicated it was not using tensor features at all, which is why it was trivial to unlock on older cards.

tmaly 6y ago

wait so should this app be able to work with something like the RTX 2070?