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One aspect of this is that consensus shifts towards obese-normalization despite no health consensus changing or scientific advancement supporting this body form

One aspect of this is that consensus shifts towards obese-normalization despite no health consensus changing or scientific advancement supporting this body form. It's merely rule by mob to accepting this because the mob is overweight and obese. Fascinating.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
I doubt it's any sort of deliberate act, just the normalization of people looking bigger and bigger and that becoming "normal". People who were fat a generation ago are now normal because the window has shifted. I don't think that the movements for obesity normalization has had as much of an effect as just seeing larger people around.
- vmception 6y ago
  > I don't think that the movements for obesity normalization has had as much of an effect as just seeing larger people around. A distinction that doesn't really matter right? In one example, I think it's good that clothing websites will show people in their clothes that look like their larger customers. I think it's good that this is less jarring to see due to prevalence alone. There was little utility for the polar opposite at size 0 and size 2 to model for everything, aside from overvaluing the addictiveness of frustration. It still remains accurate to point out the health issues associated with obesity and the folly of remaining in that state.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    > A distinction that doesn't really matter right? I think it does, because it's more insidious than any sort of active movement. Are websites showing plus sized models because they want to be body positive or just because that's who research shows buys their clothing. > It still remains accurate to point out the health issues associated with obesity and the folly of remaining in that state. Absolutely - it's a danger, I'm not saying it's not. My point is that you can change the narrative of a movement much more easily than you can change how a society as a whole unthinkingly deals with something. A deliberate normalization has a voice which can change what it's saying, this phenomena really doesn't.
    - vmception 6y ago
      In that case I do think active movements are having an effect. I think websites are showing plus sized models because the movements told them "look at your customer analytics instead of assuming the status quo of people imagining they'll look like size 0 models when they wear this" It is all very interrelated from my perspective. If I did have an opinion I would say that a more collaborate and holistic approach with a movement's narrative is possible and necessary. For example, if some people to go to the extreme of wanting magazines to make disclaimers that models are photoshopped to help people in all BMI ranges have higher self esteem, then people normalizing unhealthy but common BMI ranges should also have disclaimers about the issues associated with remaining in that state.
yodsanklai 6y ago
> despite no health consensus changing or scientific advancement supporting this body form There is a scientific consensus that being obese reduces your life expectancy.
- danhak 6y ago
  There is a growing social consensus that all body types are beautiful and should be celebrated. This is obviously a very delicate issue. We surely don't want people to be shamed or ashamed for being overweight. Nothing good comes from shame. But there is serious mortality and morbidity associated with obesity. And as a society, we don't seem to have much of a problem shaming people who fall into other risk categories such as smoking or drug use.
  - dternyak 6y ago
    > Nothing good comes from shame. While this may seem harsh at a surface level, are you really sure nothing good comes from shame? Is shame always an unhealthy emotion to experience? It seems to me that it is effective in focusing attention on potential personal misjudgement or misbehavior, and can strengthen resolve to break bad habits or otherwise ensure a better outcome for oneself going forward.
    - danhak 6y ago
      Yes, my experience with CBT very much leads me to believe that shame is a highly destructive emotion, more likely to cause someone to withdraw and disengage from life than to promote lasting positive change in behavior.
      - zionic 6y ago
        This is far from universal. Many people simply lack any motivation to change when not confronted with shame.
      - zepto 6y ago
        This is probably because you were shamed for things that were actually harmless. There is definitely a problem with the level to which shame is used indiscriminately to control people. But no emotion is inherently destructive. We should feel shame at certain things. If you tripped an old lady and didn’t feel shame, I’d say you were a psychopath, or if you simply threatened to kill anyone who you didn’t like. It’s also notable that absence of shame is characteristic of psychopathy, and even Buddhist psychology states that an absence of shame is an impediment to enlightenment. I completely support the idea that excessive or inappropriate shame is a major part of many if not most psychological disorders. Nothing supports the idea that all shame is destructive. On the topic of obesity, I do agree that shame is unlikely to help. In fact I suspect that shame is more likely to be part of the cause.
pm90 6y ago
Body shaming is not a valid method of making people get in shape, so I don't think there's anything wrong in the acceptance of people with more mass. We do have other ways to encourage people to lose weight though, such as sugar taxes, regulating processed foods' contents, investing in making fresh produce widely available etc. which can make a difference.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  People will argue this infringes on their freedom to make unhealthy life choices. I agree, you cannot force someone to make healthy life choices, only use pricing signals to encourage it. Tax them more to recoup the costs, and let them make the choices they would like (unhealthy foods, smoking, etc). I also agree that more regulation is required (States in Mexico intend to ban kids from purchasing junk food because childhood obesity there is skyrocketing [1]). [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912029399/we-had-to-take-action-states-in-mexico-move-to-ban-junk-food-sales-to-minors https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912029399/we-had-to-take-acti... (NPR: 'We Had To Take Action': States In Mexico Move To Ban Junk Food Sales To Minors)
  - outside1234 6y ago
    Or said another way, there should be a standard rate for health insurance, and an increasingly discount for folks as they come closer to an ideal BMI.
- swebs 6y ago
  It is a very effective method. It's common to do in Japan, and they have one of the lowest obesity rates of any first world country. No overbearing government regulations necessary.
  - pm90 6y ago
    Average Japanese diets are much healthier than American diets; there is less of a car culture, public transport is common. But do go on about fat shaming being effective.
DamnYuppie 6y ago
Yes, you are fat shaming if you mention they are unhealthy and overweight. The idea that you are in the wrong for pointing this out is mind-blowing to me. While it may not be an effective means of changing their behavior it is a valid means of framing conversations around what is desirable and healthy. If we continue to allow peoples feelings about how they feel override what we objectively know to be good we will be on the fast train to hell.
- shajznnckfke 6y ago
  I think in general it’s considered rude to mention that someone is stupid, unattractive, poor, etc. Overall, people are already suffering from low confidence due to these issues and pointing them out only hurts them. Unless someone is seeking out honest feedback in these areas, it’s probably better not to volunteer any. On the other hand, it’s fine to talk about how society has a problem with education, poverty, or obesity and suggest society-scale solutions.
- monkmartinez 6y ago
  Agreed... a few years ago, I was getting a bit plump in the mid-section. My wife's grandmother from Colombia strait up told me I was looking "gordo" (fat). I got on it immediately and shed the spare tire. I thanked her for being honest and open... I wish I could tell others the same. “Choose not to be harmed—and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed—and you haven’t been.” ~ Marcus Aurelius
mc32 6y ago
I kind of understand the backlash against the skinny-chic look foisted upon people by the baddies in the fashion industry, but now there’s an equally bad movement which kind of says “it’s cool to be overweight, don’t sweat it, this is how we are”. Yes, true, for some people there is little recourse, their physiology is such, but a majority could become healthier with a better lifestyle choice.
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  >I kind of understand the backlash against skinny-chic foisted upon people by the baddies in the fashion industry This is a weird trope. Most models are selected to be slender so they can, basically, simulate a clothes rack. No curves to draw attention! I'm not sure the fashion industry is telling anyone this is ideal. I can't remember, in my lifetime, when skinny models were ever really looked at by society-at-large as the "right" body type. They were always seen as "skinny models". Of course there are people with all sorts of preferences, but the most celebrated models of my youth (say, Heidi Klum or Tara Banks) were relatively fit as opposed to withering. On the other hand, many people (both men and women) end up with eating disorders trying to reach this "ideal".
  - vmception 6y ago
    Everything you mentioned was accurate. But we do have to recognize the effects that are also had on people, your last sentence is a heavier weighting than your perception. People have not been capable of separating an industry ideal from a non-industry related attractiveness ideal. Individuals know what they like, visually and sexually. Individuals are also aware of what the seeming consensus of "should like" is, visually and sexually. Simple put, people know when other people are considered hot and what that looks like.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  a majority could become healthier with a better lifestyle choice. When such a large portion of the population is overweight it tends to indicate a systemic problem rather than one of individual choice.
ashleyn 6y ago
Individuals have the right to choose obesity and pay their own costs related to it. This isn't "mob rule" because nobody is really forcing anyone else to be obese. There's no problem to solve other than being more cognizant of the costs obesity will impose on one as an individual.
- zionic 6y ago
  >and pay their own costs related to it. Now run the numbers again with socialized healthcare. When society's tax dollars are funding your triple bypass from your 30+ BMI it's absolutely societies business.
- i_haz_rabies 6y ago
  Society pays for it too. Less so than some countries given America's private healthcare system, but as an extreme example... what happens if America needs more soldiers? Overeating means more agriculture means more land used/more inputs required/more carbon burned. Illness and early deaths has an impact on productivity. No man is an island, everything you do has an impact on society.
RobLach 6y ago
A minor one, and misunderstanding of the argument. The "obese-normalization" you speak is about fat-shaming abolitionism, against discrimination in professional and social spaces because of body composition, not that such a body type is necessarily encouraged. Furthermore the categorization of "obese", and BMI in general, has a pile of research exposing all the caveats and encouraged more granular diagnoses around mass composition for humans. You can be categorized as obese and have perfectly fine physical function. For example, pretty much every football player is overweight, most are obese. BMI charts are only a cursory step towards a proper analysis. If you understand that obesity comes from a medical or mental condition, then a culture of fat-shaming is comparable to having a culture of shaming those suffering from PTSD or depression or birth abnormalities, et al. That sort of culture doesn't have many positive societal effects beyond pushing people into mental duress about things they are still trying to figure out how to manage. Any hyper-normalization of extreme obesity is a side effect of the propensity of such a shaming culture as it becomes more of a political statement than a medical one (or more fringe culture i.e kinks). Being against removing this discrimination from our culture only makes sense if you believe that an effective methodology for overcoming a health problem is by being abused by society into action conformity. Simply, if you're too fat you should be allowed to deal with that very personal issue on your own terms and not be ostracized from professional or social spaces. The main aspect is a demonization of fatty foods, propagandized heavily by the sugar and soft drink industry, which market realities have shifted food products to compensate for the lack of flavor and satiation from fat by loading them with sugar. This is all compounded by massive corn subsidies in the US making it extremely tempting to load up recipes with cheap, sweet, calorie dense, corn syrup. (some random chart after quick search about this https://imgur.com/nvWRyrh https://imgur.com/nvWRyrh)
johnkpaul 6y ago
As a lifelong morbidly obese person, and I admit that this is anecdata, this is categorically not true, for me. I feel no normalizations. I feel no mob, on my side. Rather, I feel a gigantic mob on the "just lose weight you fat person" side. I still have doctors that won't take any ailment seriously because their first response is "just lose weight you fat person". Everything in this HuffPo article rings completely true for me -https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/ https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-y...

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago

I doubt it's any sort of deliberate act, just the normalization of people looking bigger and bigger and that becoming "normal". People who were fat a generation ago are now normal because the window has shifted. I don't think that the movements for obesity normalization has had as much of an effect as just seeing larger people around.

vmception 6y ago
> I don't think that the movements for obesity normalization has had as much of an effect as just seeing larger people around. A distinction that doesn't really matter right? In one example, I think it's good that clothing websites will show people in their clothes that look like their larger customers. I think it's good that this is less jarring to see due to prevalence alone. There was little utility for the polar opposite at size 0 and size 2 to model for everything, aside from overvaluing the addictiveness of frustration. It still remains accurate to point out the health issues associated with obesity and the folly of remaining in that state.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  > A distinction that doesn't really matter right? I think it does, because it's more insidious than any sort of active movement. Are websites showing plus sized models because they want to be body positive or just because that's who research shows buys their clothing. > It still remains accurate to point out the health issues associated with obesity and the folly of remaining in that state. Absolutely - it's a danger, I'm not saying it's not. My point is that you can change the narrative of a movement much more easily than you can change how a society as a whole unthinkingly deals with something. A deliberate normalization has a voice which can change what it's saying, this phenomena really doesn't.
  - vmception 6y ago
    In that case I do think active movements are having an effect. I think websites are showing plus sized models because the movements told them "look at your customer analytics instead of assuming the status quo of people imagining they'll look like size 0 models when they wear this" It is all very interrelated from my perspective. If I did have an opinion I would say that a more collaborate and holistic approach with a movement's narrative is possible and necessary. For example, if some people to go to the extreme of wanting magazines to make disclaimers that models are photoshopped to help people in all BMI ranges have higher self esteem, then people normalizing unhealthy but common BMI ranges should also have disclaimers about the issues associated with remaining in that state.

yodsanklai 6y ago

> despite no health consensus changing or scientific advancement supporting this body form There is a scientific consensus that being obese reduces your life expectancy.

danhak 6y ago
There is a growing social consensus that all body types are beautiful and should be celebrated. This is obviously a very delicate issue. We surely don't want people to be shamed or ashamed for being overweight. Nothing good comes from shame. But there is serious mortality and morbidity associated with obesity. And as a society, we don't seem to have much of a problem shaming people who fall into other risk categories such as smoking or drug use.
- dternyak 6y ago
  > Nothing good comes from shame. While this may seem harsh at a surface level, are you really sure nothing good comes from shame? Is shame always an unhealthy emotion to experience? It seems to me that it is effective in focusing attention on potential personal misjudgement or misbehavior, and can strengthen resolve to break bad habits or otherwise ensure a better outcome for oneself going forward.
  - danhak 6y ago
    Yes, my experience with CBT very much leads me to believe that shame is a highly destructive emotion, more likely to cause someone to withdraw and disengage from life than to promote lasting positive change in behavior.
    - zionic 6y ago
      This is far from universal. Many people simply lack any motivation to change when not confronted with shame.
    - zepto 6y ago
      This is probably because you were shamed for things that were actually harmless. There is definitely a problem with the level to which shame is used indiscriminately to control people. But no emotion is inherently destructive. We should feel shame at certain things. If you tripped an old lady and didn’t feel shame, I’d say you were a psychopath, or if you simply threatened to kill anyone who you didn’t like. It’s also notable that absence of shame is characteristic of psychopathy, and even Buddhist psychology states that an absence of shame is an impediment to enlightenment. I completely support the idea that excessive or inappropriate shame is a major part of many if not most psychological disorders. Nothing supports the idea that all shame is destructive. On the topic of obesity, I do agree that shame is unlikely to help. In fact I suspect that shame is more likely to be part of the cause.

pm90 6y ago

Body shaming is not a valid method of making people get in shape, so I don't think there's anything wrong in the acceptance of people with more mass. We do have other ways to encourage people to lose weight though, such as sugar taxes, regulating processed foods' contents, investing in making fresh produce widely available etc. which can make a difference.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
People will argue this infringes on their freedom to make unhealthy life choices. I agree, you cannot force someone to make healthy life choices, only use pricing signals to encourage it. Tax them more to recoup the costs, and let them make the choices they would like (unhealthy foods, smoking, etc). I also agree that more regulation is required (States in Mexico intend to ban kids from purchasing junk food because childhood obesity there is skyrocketing [1]). [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912029399/we-had-to-take-action-states-in-mexico-move-to-ban-junk-food-sales-to-minors https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912029399/we-had-to-take-acti... (NPR: 'We Had To Take Action': States In Mexico Move To Ban Junk Food Sales To Minors)
- outside1234 6y ago
  Or said another way, there should be a standard rate for health insurance, and an increasingly discount for folks as they come closer to an ideal BMI.
swebs 6y ago
It is a very effective method. It's common to do in Japan, and they have one of the lowest obesity rates of any first world country. No overbearing government regulations necessary.
- pm90 6y ago
  Average Japanese diets are much healthier than American diets; there is less of a car culture, public transport is common. But do go on about fat shaming being effective.

DamnYuppie 6y ago

Yes, you are fat shaming if you mention they are unhealthy and overweight. The idea that you are in the wrong for pointing this out is mind-blowing to me. While it may not be an effective means of changing their behavior it is a valid means of framing conversations around what is desirable and healthy. If we continue to allow peoples feelings about how they feel override what we objectively know to be good we will be on the fast train to hell.

shajznnckfke 6y ago
I think in general it’s considered rude to mention that someone is stupid, unattractive, poor, etc. Overall, people are already suffering from low confidence due to these issues and pointing them out only hurts them. Unless someone is seeking out honest feedback in these areas, it’s probably better not to volunteer any. On the other hand, it’s fine to talk about how society has a problem with education, poverty, or obesity and suggest society-scale solutions.
monkmartinez 6y ago
Agreed... a few years ago, I was getting a bit plump in the mid-section. My wife's grandmother from Colombia strait up told me I was looking "gordo" (fat). I got on it immediately and shed the spare tire. I thanked her for being honest and open... I wish I could tell others the same. “Choose not to be harmed—and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed—and you haven’t been.” ~ Marcus Aurelius

mc32 6y ago

I kind of understand the backlash against the skinny-chic look foisted upon people by the baddies in the fashion industry, but now there’s an equally bad movement which kind of says “it’s cool to be overweight, don’t sweat it, this is how we are”. Yes, true, for some people there is little recourse, their physiology is such, but a majority could become healthier with a better lifestyle choice.

itsoktocry 6y ago
>I kind of understand the backlash against skinny-chic foisted upon people by the baddies in the fashion industry This is a weird trope. Most models are selected to be slender so they can, basically, simulate a clothes rack. No curves to draw attention! I'm not sure the fashion industry is telling anyone this is ideal. I can't remember, in my lifetime, when skinny models were ever really looked at by society-at-large as the "right" body type. They were always seen as "skinny models". Of course there are people with all sorts of preferences, but the most celebrated models of my youth (say, Heidi Klum or Tara Banks) were relatively fit as opposed to withering. On the other hand, many people (both men and women) end up with eating disorders trying to reach this "ideal".
- vmception 6y ago
  Everything you mentioned was accurate. But we do have to recognize the effects that are also had on people, your last sentence is a heavier weighting than your perception. People have not been capable of separating an industry ideal from a non-industry related attractiveness ideal. Individuals know what they like, visually and sexually. Individuals are also aware of what the seeming consensus of "should like" is, visually and sexually. Simple put, people know when other people are considered hot and what that looks like.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
a majority could become healthier with a better lifestyle choice. When such a large portion of the population is overweight it tends to indicate a systemic problem rather than one of individual choice.

ashleyn 6y ago

Individuals have the right to choose obesity and pay their own costs related to it. This isn't "mob rule" because nobody is really forcing anyone else to be obese. There's no problem to solve other than being more cognizant of the costs obesity will impose on one as an individual.

zionic 6y ago
>and pay their own costs related to it. Now run the numbers again with socialized healthcare. When society's tax dollars are funding your triple bypass from your 30+ BMI it's absolutely societies business.
i_haz_rabies 6y ago
Society pays for it too. Less so than some countries given America's private healthcare system, but as an extreme example... what happens if America needs more soldiers? Overeating means more agriculture means more land used/more inputs required/more carbon burned. Illness and early deaths has an impact on productivity. No man is an island, everything you do has an impact on society.

RobLach 6y ago

A minor one, and misunderstanding of the argument. The "obese-normalization" you speak is about fat-shaming abolitionism, against discrimination in professional and social spaces because of body composition, not that such a body type is necessarily encouraged. Furthermore the categorization of "obese", and BMI in general, has a pile of research exposing all the caveats and encouraged more granular diagnoses around mass composition for humans. You can be categorized as obese and have perfectly fine physical function. For example, pretty much every football player is overweight, most are obese. BMI charts are only a cursory step towards a proper analysis. If you understand that obesity comes from a medical or mental condition, then a culture of fat-shaming is comparable to having a culture of shaming those suffering from PTSD or depression or birth abnormalities, et al. That sort of culture doesn't have many positive societal effects beyond pushing people into mental duress about things they are still trying to figure out how to manage. Any hyper-normalization of extreme obesity is a side effect of the propensity of such a shaming culture as it becomes more of a political statement than a medical one (or more fringe culture i.e kinks). Being against removing this discrimination from our culture only makes sense if you believe that an effective methodology for overcoming a health problem is by being abused by society into action conformity. Simply, if you're too fat you should be allowed to deal with that very personal issue on your own terms and not be ostracized from professional or social spaces. The main aspect is a demonization of fatty foods, propagandized heavily by the sugar and soft drink industry, which market realities have shifted food products to compensate for the lack of flavor and satiation from fat by loading them with sugar. This is all compounded by massive corn subsidies in the US making it extremely tempting to load up recipes with cheap, sweet, calorie dense, corn syrup. (some random chart after quick search about this https://imgur.com/nvWRyrh https://imgur.com/nvWRyrh)

johnkpaul 6y ago

As a lifelong morbidly obese person, and I admit that this is anecdata, this is categorically not true, for me. I feel no normalizations. I feel no mob, on my side. Rather, I feel a gigantic mob on the "just lose weight you fat person" side. I still have doctors that won't take any ailment seriously because their first response is "just lose weight you fat person". Everything in this HuffPo article rings completely true for me -https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/ https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-y...