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What do you expect the US government to do in this situation? The ventilators are not needed. The US Strategic National Stockpile does not need more ventilators

What do you expect the US government to do in this situation? The ventilators are not needed. The US Strategic National Stockpile does not need more ventilators. Theses weren't "tricks". These contracts were poorly negotiated based on a crazed delusion we would need them. Even Dem reps have spoken out about these contracts.

tinus_hn 6y ago
If the contracts are bad they shouldn’t have signed them. If you make a habit of just going back on your promise when it suits you, what is your word worth? Nothing.
- murgindrag 6y ago
  That's not how contracts in business work. It's not a promise. It's a legal contract. In business, you're allowed to break contracts, and there is no moral harm. Rather, there are damages. If I promise to buy a car from you for $100,000, and you spend $10,000 to make it, and I discover I don't need the car anymore, in most cases, I can walk away paying you $10,000. If you continued doing unneeded work, that'd be bad economics. If you could rake me over the coals and ask to me to pay $50k, that'd be exploitative. In most cases, the outcome of a broken contract is that I try to set things right for you by either: * Paying you costs incurred * Paying you expected profits * Or similar. Courts calculate damages by a range of formulas, which then sets standards for how business is conducted, and in most cases, people don't go to court but just agree to pay damages. This is foreign to how most people think about agreements; it's a very different culture. But if you talk to lawyers or executives, that's how they reason about contracts.
- crisdux 6y ago
  To be blunt, that perspective is misguided and unrealistic. I assume these contracts allowed for a partial termination, this isn't uncommon. There is no indication these were broken unlawfully. In the case with Phillips, they already delivered 1/4th of the ventilators, there are reports all over the place stating that these were overpaid for. Of course the government overpaid for these. They were in a situation were they had to. Phillips even made indications in their earnings reports that these are contributing significant profit. These manufacturers would not hesitate to enter one of these contracts again in the future.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    The contracts were not broken unlawfully because the government is allowed to break contracts at will.
taxicabjesus 6y ago
Invasive ventilation is a form of medical pseudoscience. While sometimes it's necessary (neck/abdominal surgery, etc), it causes tremendous barotrauma to patients' lungs, and should not be used to treat infections until randomized studies show that it's actually beneficial [0]. Someone should investigate how it came to be that anesthetizing COVID-19 patients and sticking a tube into their lungs was the standard treatment, until the front-line medical teams rebelled. [1] [0] https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Ventilators-aren-t-a-panacea-for-a-pandemic-like-coronavirus https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Ventilators-aren-t-a-pan... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventilators-specia/special-report-as-virus-advances-doctors-rethink-rush-to-ventilate-idUSKCN2251PE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventil...

tinus_hn 6y ago

If the contracts are bad they shouldn’t have signed them. If you make a habit of just going back on your promise when it suits you, what is your word worth? Nothing.

murgindrag 6y ago
That's not how contracts in business work. It's not a promise. It's a legal contract. In business, you're allowed to break contracts, and there is no moral harm. Rather, there are damages. If I promise to buy a car from you for $100,000, and you spend $10,000 to make it, and I discover I don't need the car anymore, in most cases, I can walk away paying you $10,000. If you continued doing unneeded work, that'd be bad economics. If you could rake me over the coals and ask to me to pay $50k, that'd be exploitative. In most cases, the outcome of a broken contract is that I try to set things right for you by either: * Paying you costs incurred * Paying you expected profits * Or similar. Courts calculate damages by a range of formulas, which then sets standards for how business is conducted, and in most cases, people don't go to court but just agree to pay damages. This is foreign to how most people think about agreements; it's a very different culture. But if you talk to lawyers or executives, that's how they reason about contracts.
crisdux 6y ago
To be blunt, that perspective is misguided and unrealistic. I assume these contracts allowed for a partial termination, this isn't uncommon. There is no indication these were broken unlawfully. In the case with Phillips, they already delivered 1/4th of the ventilators, there are reports all over the place stating that these were overpaid for. Of course the government overpaid for these. They were in a situation were they had to. Phillips even made indications in their earnings reports that these are contributing significant profit. These manufacturers would not hesitate to enter one of these contracts again in the future.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  The contracts were not broken unlawfully because the government is allowed to break contracts at will.

taxicabjesus 6y ago

Invasive ventilation is a form of medical pseudoscience. While sometimes it's necessary (neck/abdominal surgery, etc), it causes tremendous barotrauma to patients' lungs, and should not be used to treat infections until randomized studies show that it's actually beneficial [0]. Someone should investigate how it came to be that anesthetizing COVID-19 patients and sticking a tube into their lungs was the standard treatment, until the front-line medical teams rebelled. [1] [0] https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Ventilators-aren-t-a-panacea-for-a-pandemic-like-coronavirus https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Ventilators-aren-t-a-pan... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventilators-specia/special-report-as-virus-advances-doctors-rethink-rush-to-ventilate-idUSKCN2251PE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventil...