4 ms·

Don't forget, at the current rate we're all subsidizing the rural power users. They should absolutely pay more if it costs more.

scottlamb 6y ago
I think blaming rural power users is a dangerous idea for a couple reasons. > Don't forget, at the current rate we're all subsidizing the rural power users. I'm sure this is true to some extent—just as it is for telecommunications and mail delivery—but this tower wasn't just for rural power users, was it? I think it was some sort of high-voltage long-distance transmission line. There's a region-wide electrical grid, in part because power generation doesn't happen in city centers. Urban and suburban consumers depend on rural transmission lines. > They should absolutely pay more if it costs more. Rural areas produce the food urban areas need. I suppose your goal is to encourage people to move from rural areas to urban areas to lower total societal cost. Presumably you don't also want the food supply to fall and/or food insecurity to increase among the urban poor. So it'd be irresponsible to make this change without careful monitoring and matching policy changes to prevent those effects. You need to keep food affordable, to keep farming affordable, to keep providing services farmers need affordable, etc.
- pnutjam 6y ago
  Rural people love their subsidies. We should encourage people to live in denser areas, not all cities, but towns. How many rural people do you think are involve in food production? It's only around 10%.
  - scottlamb 6y ago
    > Rural people love their subsidies. We should encourage people to live in denser areas, not all cities, but towns. How many rural people do you think are involve in food production? It's only around 10%. I have no idea. It's a hard question to answer. You are sure with no citation so I think you're wrong. How do you define "rural" and how do you define a "town"? The US Census—which probably was directly or indirectly the source of your 10%—defines rural as not urban. Urban clusters must have a population of 2,500, [1] which already excludes a lot of what I'd call towns. And as a spot check, I don't see Grundy Center, IA on the list, despite meeting the population requirement (and not being included in a larger urban cluster AFAIK). Maybe it fails one of their other requirements. It is in their list of "incorporated places". How do you define "involved in food production"? If I live with my family on a farm but picked "truck driver" as my occupation, am I involved in food production? If I am a teacher to farmers' kids, in a town of 500 people (see above), am I involved in food production? etc. Farmers don't exist in a vacuum. They need services like everyone else. Even if you are right, "only about 10%" doesn't mean you won't cause pretty significant problems for everyone by messing with those folks... [1] https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/2010-urban-rural.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...
    - pnutjam 6y ago
      I'm not saying we mess with these people, I'm saying we charge market rate, or closer to it, for electricity. Maybe setup a program they can apply for to get a subsidy. That will make the process much clearer and everyone can track how much is being subsidized. We shouldn't just throw money at companies and hide the subsidies. The help should go to the people who ask for it and that way it's much clearer to everyone involved.

scottlamb 6y ago

I think blaming rural power users is a dangerous idea for a couple reasons. > Don't forget, at the current rate we're all subsidizing the rural power users. I'm sure this is true to some extent—just as it is for telecommunications and mail delivery—but this tower wasn't just for rural power users, was it? I think it was some sort of high-voltage long-distance transmission line. There's a region-wide electrical grid, in part because power generation doesn't happen in city centers. Urban and suburban consumers depend on rural transmission lines. > They should absolutely pay more if it costs more. Rural areas produce the food urban areas need. I suppose your goal is to encourage people to move from rural areas to urban areas to lower total societal cost. Presumably you don't also want the food supply to fall and/or food insecurity to increase among the urban poor. So it'd be irresponsible to make this change without careful monitoring and matching policy changes to prevent those effects. You need to keep food affordable, to keep farming affordable, to keep providing services farmers need affordable, etc.

pnutjam 6y ago
Rural people love their subsidies. We should encourage people to live in denser areas, not all cities, but towns. How many rural people do you think are involve in food production? It's only around 10%.
- scottlamb 6y ago
  > Rural people love their subsidies. We should encourage people to live in denser areas, not all cities, but towns. How many rural people do you think are involve in food production? It's only around 10%. I have no idea. It's a hard question to answer. You are sure with no citation so I think you're wrong. How do you define "rural" and how do you define a "town"? The US Census—which probably was directly or indirectly the source of your 10%—defines rural as not urban. Urban clusters must have a population of 2,500, [1] which already excludes a lot of what I'd call towns. And as a spot check, I don't see Grundy Center, IA on the list, despite meeting the population requirement (and not being included in a larger urban cluster AFAIK). Maybe it fails one of their other requirements. It is in their list of "incorporated places". How do you define "involved in food production"? If I live with my family on a farm but picked "truck driver" as my occupation, am I involved in food production? If I am a teacher to farmers' kids, in a town of 500 people (see above), am I involved in food production? etc. Farmers don't exist in a vacuum. They need services like everyone else. Even if you are right, "only about 10%" doesn't mean you won't cause pretty significant problems for everyone by messing with those folks... [1] https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/2010-urban-rural.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...
  - pnutjam 6y ago
    I'm not saying we mess with these people, I'm saying we charge market rate, or closer to it, for electricity. Maybe setup a program they can apply for to get a subsidy. That will make the process much clearer and everyone can track how much is being subsidized. We shouldn't just throw money at companies and hide the subsidies. The help should go to the people who ask for it and that way it's much clearer to everyone involved.