4 ms·

I think it’s because US / UK security services are just as ruthless and bloody, they just cover it up better. I doubt anyone here disputes the extreme moral fai

by mlthoughts2018 6y ago

I think it’s because US / UK security services are just as ruthless and bloody, they just cover it up better. I doubt anyone here disputes the extreme moral failure of Russian state security. It’s just that we should be much more skeptical of countries that are just as bloody and flippant in their lack of concern for human life or decency, like US & UK.

mhh__ 6y ago
Who has the UK assassinated in the last 20 years? The western intelligence services are awful too but no one does it quite like the russians
- the-dude 6y ago
  Does the UK participate in any drone programs?
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Yes, but that's a different kind of operation (they're run by the military). The correct answer to my question is (if you go 40 rather than 20 years) that the bodies are very much buried in Northern Ireland (although the FRU was part of the British Army)
    - luckylion 6y ago
      The military and intelligence services are rather fuzzy though, aren't they? The CIA uses drones, they regularly employ SEAL teams.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        The CIA storing brown people in black sites is heinous but there is a certain logic to the operation, as opposed to bumping off defectors which is purely "political". Drone strikes are an ugly solution to an awful situation (this administration is pushing the boundary's of "solution" but still - Trump bombs more than Obama & Bush combined IIRC + Soulemani ) The Russians have always been much better at espionage than the west, that's why they're bolder with these public hits. It is indeed fuzzy
        jacobush 6y ago
        I think drone strikes were a stupid solution the first time they killed a bunch of people who just happened to stand next to the intended target. Then they went downhill from there. (Edit: for instance going after someone based on very questionable intel.) Also I think espionage is (and I think I agree, the Soviets were better at infiltration probably) orthogonal to bold public hits. The public hits are an intimidation tactic.
        somesortofsystm 6y ago
        The destruction of Jewish businesses on Kristallnacht 'made a lot of sense' to many Germans at the time. Are you so sure you want to use this particular point to pivot your argument? There is NO logic to violating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, nor any of the myriad laws against extrajudicial killing, rendition and torture. It defies logic, unless the real intent is to foment the conditions ripe for yet more, endless war.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      So those are different assasinations?
    - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
      The drone assassinations by the UK are extrajudicial killings, not military operations. https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-assassinations-programme-extended-kill-list/ https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-as...
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Not sure about the UK, but didn't the US recently publically assassinate a high official of another state (an Iranian general)?
  - jacobush 6y ago
    As (insert expletive here) that was, it was more of an Act of War than just an assasination. So totally different, though I think it was immoral, strategically unsound, and stupid. Also loathable and with no regard for innocent lives.
    - tsimionescu 6y ago
      An act of war implies the existence of a war. The USA is not at war with either Iran or Irak, so not sure how this could qualify (except that, had the roles been reversed, it would have definitely been seen as an act that can START a war).
      - somesortofsystm 6y ago
        You seem to have hit on a very important point: American's don't realize that, while their country is the #1 cause of terror and war around the world, its not 'legally at war', and therefore - laws of war that traditionally the public would understand, are simply not applicable. This is another atrocity being committed on the general public by the military industrial criminal state. Doublethink and newspeak have been very skillfully applied to ensure a lack of culpability - however, to those of us who have had to dig innocent loved ones out from under America's piles of burning rubble, it is very, very clear that the American people are responsible for this mess, whether they understand their own laws or not.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-assassinations-programme-extended-kill-list/ https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-as...
jacobush 6y ago
As disgusting as what the US/UK does, it leans more towards cloak and dagger, rather than "look at as, we can kill anywhere and no-one will give a fuck about your, or if they do, they won't dare do anything to help you". Edit: yes, I guess the US has similar optics in countries it operates killing drones as Russia has in Europe. Except probably worse.
- vidarh 6y ago
  The US regularly murders people by drone without caring whether or not there is collateral damage, and without any reaction.
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    It’s truly just an extrajudicial assassination list, whitewashed by “western first world” government propaganda. https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-assassinations-programme-extended-kill-list/ https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-as...
    - dash2 6y ago
      I love it when you chaps do that little one-two of agreeing with each other. It’s so persuasive.
  - somesortofsystm 6y ago
    “I believe the perception caused by civilian casualties is one of the most dangerous enemies we face.” U.S. General Stanley A. McCrystal in his inaugural speech as ISAF Commander in June 2009.

mhh__ 6y ago

Who has the UK assassinated in the last 20 years? The western intelligence services are awful too but no one does it quite like the russians

the-dude 6y ago
Does the UK participate in any drone programs?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Yes, but that's a different kind of operation (they're run by the military). The correct answer to my question is (if you go 40 rather than 20 years) that the bodies are very much buried in Northern Ireland (although the FRU was part of the British Army)
  - luckylion 6y ago
    The military and intelligence services are rather fuzzy though, aren't they? The CIA uses drones, they regularly employ SEAL teams.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      The CIA storing brown people in black sites is heinous but there is a certain logic to the operation, as opposed to bumping off defectors which is purely "political". Drone strikes are an ugly solution to an awful situation (this administration is pushing the boundary's of "solution" but still - Trump bombs more than Obama & Bush combined IIRC + Soulemani ) The Russians have always been much better at espionage than the west, that's why they're bolder with these public hits. It is indeed fuzzy
      - jacobush 6y ago
        I think drone strikes were a stupid solution the first time they killed a bunch of people who just happened to stand next to the intended target. Then they went downhill from there. (Edit: for instance going after someone based on very questionable intel.) Also I think espionage is (and I think I agree, the Soviets were better at infiltration probably) orthogonal to bold public hits. The public hits are an intimidation tactic.
      - somesortofsystm 6y ago
        The destruction of Jewish businesses on Kristallnacht 'made a lot of sense' to many Germans at the time. Are you so sure you want to use this particular point to pivot your argument? There is NO logic to violating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, nor any of the myriad laws against extrajudicial killing, rendition and torture. It defies logic, unless the real intent is to foment the conditions ripe for yet more, endless war.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    So those are different assasinations?
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    The drone assassinations by the UK are extrajudicial killings, not military operations. https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-assassinations-programme-extended-kill-list/ https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-as...
tsimionescu 6y ago
Not sure about the UK, but didn't the US recently publically assassinate a high official of another state (an Iranian general)?
- jacobush 6y ago
  As (insert expletive here) that was, it was more of an Act of War than just an assasination. So totally different, though I think it was immoral, strategically unsound, and stupid. Also loathable and with no regard for innocent lives.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    An act of war implies the existence of a war. The USA is not at war with either Iran or Irak, so not sure how this could qualify (except that, had the roles been reversed, it would have definitely been seen as an act that can START a war).
    - somesortofsystm 6y ago
      You seem to have hit on a very important point: American's don't realize that, while their country is the #1 cause of terror and war around the world, its not 'legally at war', and therefore - laws of war that traditionally the public would understand, are simply not applicable. This is another atrocity being committed on the general public by the military industrial criminal state. Doublethink and newspeak have been very skillfully applied to ensure a lack of culpability - however, to those of us who have had to dig innocent loved ones out from under America's piles of burning rubble, it is very, very clear that the American people are responsible for this mess, whether they understand their own laws or not.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-assassinations-programme-extended-kill-list/ https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-as...

jacobush 6y ago

As disgusting as what the US/UK does, it leans more towards cloak and dagger, rather than "look at as, we can kill anywhere and no-one will give a fuck about your, or if they do, they won't dare do anything to help you". Edit: yes, I guess the US has similar optics in countries it operates killing drones as Russia has in Europe. Except probably worse.

vidarh 6y ago
The US regularly murders people by drone without caring whether or not there is collateral damage, and without any reaction.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  It’s truly just an extrajudicial assassination list, whitewashed by “western first world” government propaganda. https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-assassinations-programme-extended-kill-list/ https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/britains-secret-as...
  - dash2 6y ago
    I love it when you chaps do that little one-two of agreeing with each other. It’s so persuasive.
- somesortofsystm 6y ago
  “I believe the perception caused by civilian casualties is one of the most dangerous enemies we face.” U.S. General Stanley A. McCrystal in his inaugural speech as ISAF Commander in June 2009.