7 ms·

What? America is like the top 3 in median disposable income in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wi

by bhupy 6y ago

What? America is like the top 3 in median disposable income in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c... US wealth per adult is higher than Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, and the Netherlands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

bialpio 6y ago
Does it take into account purchasing power / cost of living? That seems relevant when comparing across countries and talking about poverty.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Yes. It’s based on OECD data, which uses PPP dollars. (Purchasing power parity dollars.) The US makes a classic average case versus worst case trade-off. The bottom 20% in the US are poorer than in other Western countries and there is less of a safety net. But in terms of material lifestyle, the median is better off.
  - mjn 6y ago
    I'm not sure I'd say the US has consciously made that tradeoff, though maybe you aren't claiming that. If anything it's likely a side-effect, imo. The median at any snapshot in time is materially better off, but also much more stressed out than people in other wealthy countries about whether they might end up in a very bad economic situation, due to how there is barely any bottom. Subjectively, middle-income Americans don't feel well off and don't feel secure in even what they have. For example, numbers vary based on the specific survey, but about 60-70% of Americans consistently feel high levels of stress about money. I'm not sure that's a course that would've been taken by a 50th-percentile person trying to optimize their own well-being? One reason Scandinavian countries tend to come near the top of those "happiest countries in the world" surveys (though I don't like the term "happy" for it) isn't from any particular joyfulness, but because the typical household subjectively has very low levels of economic fear or stress. Some of the survey questions that go into that score include things like, do you feel economically secure, do you worry about losing your housing, etc. A huge percentage of even middle-class Americans spend a lot of their time worrying about that (including my family), while the majority of middle-income people from say Denmark don't consider it a big risk to worry about.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > I'm not sure I'd say the US has consciously made that tradeoff, though maybe you aren't claiming that. If anything it's likely a side-effect, imo. The US has consciously made that trade-off. See how even Sanders doesn't propose to raise taxes on people making under $250,000, and Biden is up at $400,000. The top income tax rate in the Scandinavian countries kicks in at around $70,000.
      - mjn 6y ago
        Maybe I'm being trolled, but this is a Markov chain non sequitur response I have no way to interpret.
        rayiner 6y ago
        In Maryland, you have to make $350,000 before you’re taxed at similar rates to what an entry level white collar worker pays in Germany. (I know this because our au pair paid a similar percentage rate at her job in Germany to what my wife and I pay as two attorneys working in private practice.) It’s impossible to provide a safety net like they have in Europe while simultaneously promising not to raise our extremely low tax rates on people making $250,000 or $400,000. When even Sanders makes that promise, that is an indication of how strongly voters choose to keep taxes low versus investing in a safety net.
        mjn 6y ago
        How does this explain why, compared to middle-income Germans, middle-income Marylanders have low life satisfaction, feel economically insecure, and die younger?
        bhupy 6y ago
        Maryland has among the highest HDI’s in the Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ.... It’s not dissimilar from that of Germany (0.935 vs 0.939), and it’s higher than that of most other OECD nations. As for average life expectancy: the average is brought down by outliers. In general, the US has a higher homicide rate, a higher motor vehicle death rate, a higher obesity rate, and a higher opioid/drug death rate. These external factors all bring down the average life expectancy number more substantially than in other countries: https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2017/05/16/the-explanatory-power-of-drugs-car-accidents-and-homicides-on-us-life-expectancy-gaps/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2017/05/16/the-explanator...
mortehu 6y ago
They include retirement income as income, but do they exclude retirement savings? In US there’s a huge burden to save for your own retirement, and modern retirement vehicles (e.g. 401k and IRA) pay out in full even if you die young (no longevity risk pooling), so they’re a lot more expensive to fund.
- bhupy 6y ago
  It's PPP adjusted disposable income after all taxes and transfers, so that includes Social Security, welfare, etc. It's debatable if this is able to adequately capture all forms of non-cash transfers (like food stamps). To get around this, the World Bank uses consumption as a metric for well-being. By that metric, the poorest 20% consume more than the average person in most OECD countries[1][2], including Canada, the UK, Sweden, Australia, Japan, Denmark, New Zealand, and Iceland. [1] https://www.nber.org/chapters/c12831.pdf https://www.nber.org/chapters/c12831.pdf [2] https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/ https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-ric...
  - mortehu 6y ago
    I was referring to money set away for retirement. Since moving from Norway to US, I can’t really spend all my disposable income, given that maximum social security benefits are so low.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Using my google skills it looks like the maximum supplemental pension in Norway is NOK 293 583 or $32,216 USD.[1] The maximum US social security pension is $49,680 USD.[2] Obviously it scales based on income, but at least for US tech workers, you're likely to get close to the maximum amount since you'd be earning over $110,000 for a significant chunk of your career. The US has a much higher maximum pension amount than Canada, where it's $1,176 CAD or $889 USD. You do get an old age benefit on top of $613 CAD, which bring it up to $1,351 USD or $16,212 USD per year. [1]https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1123&intPageId=4713&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1123&intPageId=47... [2]https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2010-2011/americas/united_states.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2010-2011/ame...
DeonPenny 6y ago
And its easily higher is what people don't know. I feel like people don't understand living here that the issue is life is generally just hard. If you are having issue in the US good luck everywhere else in the world and even the first world.
soulofmischief 6y ago
I didn't say America's median population or poverty class was more poor than other developed countries, I said they're just a lot more poor than these statistics let on. Big difference.
- bhupy 6y ago
  You literally said: "America is a lot more poor than these statistics let on when compared to the rest of the first world." (emphasis mine) That is demonstrably false.
  - soulofmischief 6y ago
    Your interpretation of what I said is incorrect, I don't know what to tell you. Read it a few more times. That sentence makes no claim that America is poorer than any other country.

by bhupy 6y ago

bialpio 6y ago

Does it take into account purchasing power / cost of living? That seems relevant when comparing across countries and talking about poverty.

rayiner 6y ago
Yes. It’s based on OECD data, which uses PPP dollars. (Purchasing power parity dollars.) The US makes a classic average case versus worst case trade-off. The bottom 20% in the US are poorer than in other Western countries and there is less of a safety net. But in terms of material lifestyle, the median is better off.
- mjn 6y ago
  I'm not sure I'd say the US has consciously made that tradeoff, though maybe you aren't claiming that. If anything it's likely a side-effect, imo. The median at any snapshot in time is materially better off, but also much more stressed out than people in other wealthy countries about whether they might end up in a very bad economic situation, due to how there is barely any bottom. Subjectively, middle-income Americans don't feel well off and don't feel secure in even what they have. For example, numbers vary based on the specific survey, but about 60-70% of Americans consistently feel high levels of stress about money. I'm not sure that's a course that would've been taken by a 50th-percentile person trying to optimize their own well-being? One reason Scandinavian countries tend to come near the top of those "happiest countries in the world" surveys (though I don't like the term "happy" for it) isn't from any particular joyfulness, but because the typical household subjectively has very low levels of economic fear or stress. Some of the survey questions that go into that score include things like, do you feel economically secure, do you worry about losing your housing, etc. A huge percentage of even middle-class Americans spend a lot of their time worrying about that (including my family), while the majority of middle-income people from say Denmark don't consider it a big risk to worry about.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > I'm not sure I'd say the US has consciously made that tradeoff, though maybe you aren't claiming that. If anything it's likely a side-effect, imo. The US has consciously made that trade-off. See how even Sanders doesn't propose to raise taxes on people making under $250,000, and Biden is up at $400,000. The top income tax rate in the Scandinavian countries kicks in at around $70,000.
    - mjn 6y ago
      Maybe I'm being trolled, but this is a Markov chain non sequitur response I have no way to interpret.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        In Maryland, you have to make $350,000 before you’re taxed at similar rates to what an entry level white collar worker pays in Germany. (I know this because our au pair paid a similar percentage rate at her job in Germany to what my wife and I pay as two attorneys working in private practice.) It’s impossible to provide a safety net like they have in Europe while simultaneously promising not to raise our extremely low tax rates on people making $250,000 or $400,000. When even Sanders makes that promise, that is an indication of how strongly voters choose to keep taxes low versus investing in a safety net.
        mjn 6y ago
        How does this explain why, compared to middle-income Germans, middle-income Marylanders have low life satisfaction, feel economically insecure, and die younger?
        bhupy 6y ago
        Maryland has among the highest HDI’s in the Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ.... It’s not dissimilar from that of Germany (0.935 vs 0.939), and it’s higher than that of most other OECD nations. As for average life expectancy: the average is brought down by outliers. In general, the US has a higher homicide rate, a higher motor vehicle death rate, a higher obesity rate, and a higher opioid/drug death rate. These external factors all bring down the average life expectancy number more substantially than in other countries: https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2017/05/16/the-explanatory-power-of-drugs-car-accidents-and-homicides-on-us-life-expectancy-gaps/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2017/05/16/the-explanator...

mortehu 6y ago

They include retirement income as income, but do they exclude retirement savings? In US there’s a huge burden to save for your own retirement, and modern retirement vehicles (e.g. 401k and IRA) pay out in full even if you die young (no longevity risk pooling), so they’re a lot more expensive to fund.

bhupy 6y ago
It's PPP adjusted disposable income after all taxes and transfers, so that includes Social Security, welfare, etc. It's debatable if this is able to adequately capture all forms of non-cash transfers (like food stamps). To get around this, the World Bank uses consumption as a metric for well-being. By that metric, the poorest 20% consume more than the average person in most OECD countries[1][2], including Canada, the UK, Sweden, Australia, Japan, Denmark, New Zealand, and Iceland. [1] https://www.nber.org/chapters/c12831.pdf https://www.nber.org/chapters/c12831.pdf [2] https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/ https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-ric...
- mortehu 6y ago
  I was referring to money set away for retirement. Since moving from Norway to US, I can’t really spend all my disposable income, given that maximum social security benefits are so low.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Using my google skills it looks like the maximum supplemental pension in Norway is NOK 293 583 or $32,216 USD.[1] The maximum US social security pension is $49,680 USD.[2] Obviously it scales based on income, but at least for US tech workers, you're likely to get close to the maximum amount since you'd be earning over $110,000 for a significant chunk of your career. The US has a much higher maximum pension amount than Canada, where it's $1,176 CAD or $889 USD. You do get an old age benefit on top of $613 CAD, which bring it up to $1,351 USD or $16,212 USD per year. [1]https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1123&intPageId=4713&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1123&intPageId=47... [2]https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2010-2011/americas/united_states.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2010-2011/ame...

DeonPenny 6y ago

And its easily higher is what people don't know. I feel like people don't understand living here that the issue is life is generally just hard. If you are having issue in the US good luck everywhere else in the world and even the first world.

soulofmischief 6y ago

I didn't say America's median population or poverty class was more poor than other developed countries, I said they're just a lot more poor than these statistics let on. Big difference.

bhupy 6y ago
You literally said: "America is a lot more poor than these statistics let on when compared to the rest of the first world." (emphasis mine) That is demonstrably false.
- soulofmischief 6y ago
  Your interpretation of what I said is incorrect, I don't know what to tell you. Read it a few more times. That sentence makes no claim that America is poorer than any other country.