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Who said suddenly? I just said I have to. For the sake of someone else's safety Most of the times I have to because the biker (motor or not) approached the t

Who said suddenly? I just said I have to. For the sake of someone else's safety Most of the times I have to because the biker (motor or not) approached the turn at a far greater speed then they could handle Don't build up expectations, if you can't keep them I guess you never witnessed a bike surpassing you on the right side of a turn, like they were on a race track, just to stop in front of you when they realise there is some kind of blockage or it is a slow turn and it's not the car in front of them that it's trying to slow then down on purpose Try to keep the distances when they jump in front of you from nowhere... > This is why I am willing to break the law to be safe. So you are making someone else unsafe, possibly a woman with a stroller, to keep you safe? That's not what I call being responsible...

mulmen 6y ago
> So you are making someone else unsafe, possibly a woman with a stroller, to keep you safe? No? If I ride my bicycle on the sidewalk it is at basically walking speed so as not to endanger pedestrians. If I lane split my motorcycle the woman and stroller would have to be in traffic to be at any risk.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  You are still doing something unlawful betting that everything's gonna be ok What's the difference with a moped or a motorbike doing the same?
  - alanfranz 6y ago
    It's very unlikely that a bicycle could kill anyone. A motorbike or moped could, and very easily. Breaking the same law, but with rather different outcomes.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      There are 40 million cars in Italy (not counting other kind of vehicles) There have been 612 pedestrian deaths in 2018. Not accounting for the context and only counting cars. stats just count the number of pedestrians hit and dead, they could have been hit by a bicycle as far as we know. It's 15 every million cars. That's not very likely as well.
      - alanfranz 6y ago
        > stats just count the number of pedestrians hit and dead, they could have been hit by a bicycle as far as we know. Very unlikely, unless it's something that happens in Italy only. I found that in the UK, with a comparable populations, incidents where pedestrians die are and a bike is involved (with no info on who's at fault) are about 4 per year. Similar data is available in other nations, AFAIK. And, as you state, you can only think a bike being dangerous for a pedestrian, so you're forgetting the whole amount of deaths on the road. In 2018 there have been 3,300 road-related deaths in Italy. Since cyclists can only kill pedestrians (unless a very rare event occurs), they account for ... 0.002% of road deaths? I think it's quite clear that cyclists can easily get injured if they break road rules; and being hit by a bicycle is far less serious than being hit by a motorcycle or by a car at the same speed, right? This is less and less true as the size of the vehicle increases. The kind of punishment you get for an illegal act should be proportional to how serious is your infringement. I despise "cicloamatori" as well, since they fill up roads for no reasons and they overtake me with 5cms clearance; but, on italian roads, as a bike commuter, I sometimes feel compelled to break some rules, at my own risk, either to increase my safety, or to make my bike trip reasonable (because some roads are impossible to use when on a bike). I agree that some behaviours by some cyclists show a total disregard for their integrity and law. I think I've never took a street in the wrong direction in my whole life. And I would NOT expect cars to slow down or stop because I'm happily breaking the law just because I'm on a bike! If I'm on a sidewalk and ANY pedestrian approaches, I stop and I let them pass FIRST. But, let's put things in perspective. Cyclists pay for their mistakes AND for others' mistakes with their own blood. But their contribution to road deaths and injuries is non-existent. Refs: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/863550/cyclist-killed-bicycle-accident-two-pedestrians-every-week https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/863550/cyclist-killed-bicy...
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        Now if you compare the number of bikes multiply per miles you end up seeing that cars are not more dangerous than bikes. There are simply more of them, running way more miles. UK government made a study about it https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/648081/rrcgb2016-01.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > And, as you state, you can only think a bike being dangerous for a pedestrian Not only. Directly and indirectly they can cause very dangerous accidents. Bikers have the tendency to think that everybody is out to kill them. But if you think about it, everybody else, even bikers when they are not on a bike, think that bikers (or _other_ bikers in case of bikers) are out to kill themselves. Why? Because they don't follow the same rules they try to enforce on others. One example among many, that is easy to spot just looking around: bikers (rightfully) campaign a lot around the concept of safe distance Here is an example https://s23705.pcdn.co/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/doc-root/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/New-bike-laws.jpg.webp https://s23705.pcdn.co/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/d... But his is how they usually ride in traffic or around pedestrians https://st.focusedcollection.com/14026668/i/650/focused_181528682-stock-photo-woman-riding-bicycle-road-traffic.jpg https://st.focusedcollection.com/14026668/i/650/focused_1815... https://www.cyc-lok.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dublin-cyclists.jpg https://www.cyc-lok.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dublin-cyc... Do we waanna talk about how they "park"their bikes on the sidewalk so impaired pedestrians (like my mother in law who is legally blind) have a hard time going around alone? Am I the only one that have seen this? https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-firenze/2017/08/06/103433773-0fbb8bb9-ef7c-4416-82df-fd910c7d837c.jpg https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-firenze/2... https://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy:1.13704166:1540378324/image/image.jpg?f=detail_558&h=720&w=1280&$p$f$h$w=d5eb06a https://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy:1.137... https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-tre-320x400.jpg https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-tre-320x... https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-due-320x400.jpg https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-due-320x... Not that cars are better in this regard, of course! It's just a different way of being an asshole. > they account for ... 0.002% of road deaths? There have been only 8 cyclists dead in Rome in 2018 in over 27 thousands accidents. it's not even sure they died in an accident with a car, the stats don't say it. It means one dead every 3,375 accidents. And yet bikes are the most dangerous way to go around in Italy (statistically, it means that rarely you will have an accident, but if you do, there are much more chances that it will be bad). > I sometimes feel compelled to break some rules, at my own risk, either to increase my safety, or to make my bike trip reasonable That sounds about right, but it's simply justification for misbehaviour. I too feel compelled to break rules, at my own risk, either to increase my safety, or to make my trip reasonable . But it is wrong and most of the times I don't do it (yes, I'm not perfect, sometimes I break rules too). When I do it, I don't try to rationalize it, I know I'm simply being a jerk. > because some roads are impossible to use when on a bike Then don't use them Some roads are impossible to walk, I don't walk on them. I'm not saying I like it or that cyclists are to blame, I'm trying to say that cyclists are human like the rest of us and they break the rules on a bike as much as they do it when they drive. But it is also true that most bikers and drivers don't, they are only trying to get trough the day, go to work or back home because they have to, not because they are on a mission to kill. They simply make mistakes, on both sides. Safety is about being proactive, not passively waiting that someone else fix things for us. I don't ride with a bike in Rome not because it's too dangerous, but because there are better options for me. Biking solves none of my mobility problems. It's too slow when I'm in a hurry. It's too heavy when I need to travel afar. It's too weather sensitive, it's almost always either too hot or too cold or too rainy or too windy. If I'm going to a meeting, I can't be there sweating like a marathoner. If I wanna do some sport, I go running on Colle Oppio, where I can see the Colosseum. Not that I despise biking, it's not an efficient mean of transport in my opinion. > But, let's put things in perspective. Cyclists pay for their mistake Drivers finance road safety though, directly through taxes (there are a lot of taxes on cars and driving and also on gasoline) In Italy, for example, money collected from fines for road traffic offense in general must be used by the municipality to enhance or deploy road safety, they can't be used for anything else. If road safety programs had to be paid with the money taken from cyclists, we wouldn't be doing much.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Mopeds stay on the road. I don't break laws that can result in me hitting a pedestrian. In the United States it is illegal (almost everywhere) to ride between lanes of traffic at any speed. That is a law I break almost every time I am on a motorcycle. The only way to hit a pedestrian in that situation is if they are walking between lanes of traffic. I typically do it at stop signs and lights where I stop between two rows of cars so if one gets rear ended I am not the one that gets obliterated. I will treat a traffic light as a stop sign if it does not detect my bike, which is common. I won't wait for a car to hopefully stop behind me without killing me. I do this at intersections I am familiar with. This is technically legal if you do it a certain way but I often don't wait that long to minimize my risk. I'm not taking a motorized vehicle down a sidewalk at any speed. I will ride my bicycle on a sidewalk along busy streets if there is minimal pedestrian presence and no alternate route. When a conflict with a pedestrian presents itself I move back to the road if possible. There are also legal things I do that are often perceived as illegal such as riding with my high beams on during the day or skipping ferry lines. If I get flashed by oncoming traffic they may be mad at me but at least I know they saw me.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      US road traffic is not usually like this though https://www.romadailynews.it/photogallery_new/images/2015/05/traffico-roma-252245.660x368.jpg https://www.romadailynews.it/photogallery_new/images/2015/05... While it is pretty common in cities like Rome or Paris or Barcelona
      - mulmen 6y ago
        Yeah that would never happen in the US. I mean it might but there would be bodies everywhere.

mulmen 6y ago

> So you are making someone else unsafe, possibly a woman with a stroller, to keep you safe? No? If I ride my bicycle on the sidewalk it is at basically walking speed so as not to endanger pedestrians. If I lane split my motorcycle the woman and stroller would have to be in traffic to be at any risk.

romanoderoma 6y ago
You are still doing something unlawful betting that everything's gonna be ok What's the difference with a moped or a motorbike doing the same?
- alanfranz 6y ago
  It's very unlikely that a bicycle could kill anyone. A motorbike or moped could, and very easily. Breaking the same law, but with rather different outcomes.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    There are 40 million cars in Italy (not counting other kind of vehicles) There have been 612 pedestrian deaths in 2018. Not accounting for the context and only counting cars. stats just count the number of pedestrians hit and dead, they could have been hit by a bicycle as far as we know. It's 15 every million cars. That's not very likely as well.
    - alanfranz 6y ago
      > stats just count the number of pedestrians hit and dead, they could have been hit by a bicycle as far as we know. Very unlikely, unless it's something that happens in Italy only. I found that in the UK, with a comparable populations, incidents where pedestrians die are and a bike is involved (with no info on who's at fault) are about 4 per year. Similar data is available in other nations, AFAIK. And, as you state, you can only think a bike being dangerous for a pedestrian, so you're forgetting the whole amount of deaths on the road. In 2018 there have been 3,300 road-related deaths in Italy. Since cyclists can only kill pedestrians (unless a very rare event occurs), they account for ... 0.002% of road deaths? I think it's quite clear that cyclists can easily get injured if they break road rules; and being hit by a bicycle is far less serious than being hit by a motorcycle or by a car at the same speed, right? This is less and less true as the size of the vehicle increases. The kind of punishment you get for an illegal act should be proportional to how serious is your infringement. I despise "cicloamatori" as well, since they fill up roads for no reasons and they overtake me with 5cms clearance; but, on italian roads, as a bike commuter, I sometimes feel compelled to break some rules, at my own risk, either to increase my safety, or to make my bike trip reasonable (because some roads are impossible to use when on a bike). I agree that some behaviours by some cyclists show a total disregard for their integrity and law. I think I've never took a street in the wrong direction in my whole life. And I would NOT expect cars to slow down or stop because I'm happily breaking the law just because I'm on a bike! If I'm on a sidewalk and ANY pedestrian approaches, I stop and I let them pass FIRST. But, let's put things in perspective. Cyclists pay for their mistakes AND for others' mistakes with their own blood. But their contribution to road deaths and injuries is non-existent. Refs: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/863550/cyclist-killed-bicycle-accident-two-pedestrians-every-week https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/863550/cyclist-killed-bicy...
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        Now if you compare the number of bikes multiply per miles you end up seeing that cars are not more dangerous than bikes. There are simply more of them, running way more miles. UK government made a study about it https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/648081/rrcgb2016-01.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > And, as you state, you can only think a bike being dangerous for a pedestrian Not only. Directly and indirectly they can cause very dangerous accidents. Bikers have the tendency to think that everybody is out to kill them. But if you think about it, everybody else, even bikers when they are not on a bike, think that bikers (or _other_ bikers in case of bikers) are out to kill themselves. Why? Because they don't follow the same rules they try to enforce on others. One example among many, that is easy to spot just looking around: bikers (rightfully) campaign a lot around the concept of safe distance Here is an example https://s23705.pcdn.co/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/doc-root/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/New-bike-laws.jpg.webp https://s23705.pcdn.co/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/d... But his is how they usually ride in traffic or around pedestrians https://st.focusedcollection.com/14026668/i/650/focused_181528682-stock-photo-woman-riding-bicycle-road-traffic.jpg https://st.focusedcollection.com/14026668/i/650/focused_1815... https://www.cyc-lok.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dublin-cyclists.jpg https://www.cyc-lok.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dublin-cyc... Do we waanna talk about how they "park"their bikes on the sidewalk so impaired pedestrians (like my mother in law who is legally blind) have a hard time going around alone? Am I the only one that have seen this? https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-firenze/2017/08/06/103433773-0fbb8bb9-ef7c-4416-82df-fd910c7d837c.jpg https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-firenze/2... https://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy:1.13704166:1540378324/image/image.jpg?f=detail_558&h=720&w=1280&$p$f$h$w=d5eb06a https://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy:1.137... https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-tre-320x400.jpg https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-tre-320x... https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-due-320x400.jpg https://radionbc.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bici-due-320x... Not that cars are better in this regard, of course! It's just a different way of being an asshole. > they account for ... 0.002% of road deaths? There have been only 8 cyclists dead in Rome in 2018 in over 27 thousands accidents. it's not even sure they died in an accident with a car, the stats don't say it. It means one dead every 3,375 accidents. And yet bikes are the most dangerous way to go around in Italy (statistically, it means that rarely you will have an accident, but if you do, there are much more chances that it will be bad). > I sometimes feel compelled to break some rules, at my own risk, either to increase my safety, or to make my bike trip reasonable That sounds about right, but it's simply justification for misbehaviour. I too feel compelled to break rules, at my own risk, either to increase my safety, or to make my trip reasonable . But it is wrong and most of the times I don't do it (yes, I'm not perfect, sometimes I break rules too). When I do it, I don't try to rationalize it, I know I'm simply being a jerk. > because some roads are impossible to use when on a bike Then don't use them Some roads are impossible to walk, I don't walk on them. I'm not saying I like it or that cyclists are to blame, I'm trying to say that cyclists are human like the rest of us and they break the rules on a bike as much as they do it when they drive. But it is also true that most bikers and drivers don't, they are only trying to get trough the day, go to work or back home because they have to, not because they are on a mission to kill. They simply make mistakes, on both sides. Safety is about being proactive, not passively waiting that someone else fix things for us. I don't ride with a bike in Rome not because it's too dangerous, but because there are better options for me. Biking solves none of my mobility problems. It's too slow when I'm in a hurry. It's too heavy when I need to travel afar. It's too weather sensitive, it's almost always either too hot or too cold or too rainy or too windy. If I'm going to a meeting, I can't be there sweating like a marathoner. If I wanna do some sport, I go running on Colle Oppio, where I can see the Colosseum. Not that I despise biking, it's not an efficient mean of transport in my opinion. > But, let's put things in perspective. Cyclists pay for their mistake Drivers finance road safety though, directly through taxes (there are a lot of taxes on cars and driving and also on gasoline) In Italy, for example, money collected from fines for road traffic offense in general must be used by the municipality to enhance or deploy road safety, they can't be used for anything else. If road safety programs had to be paid with the money taken from cyclists, we wouldn't be doing much.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Mopeds stay on the road. I don't break laws that can result in me hitting a pedestrian. In the United States it is illegal (almost everywhere) to ride between lanes of traffic at any speed. That is a law I break almost every time I am on a motorcycle. The only way to hit a pedestrian in that situation is if they are walking between lanes of traffic. I typically do it at stop signs and lights where I stop between two rows of cars so if one gets rear ended I am not the one that gets obliterated. I will treat a traffic light as a stop sign if it does not detect my bike, which is common. I won't wait for a car to hopefully stop behind me without killing me. I do this at intersections I am familiar with. This is technically legal if you do it a certain way but I often don't wait that long to minimize my risk. I'm not taking a motorized vehicle down a sidewalk at any speed. I will ride my bicycle on a sidewalk along busy streets if there is minimal pedestrian presence and no alternate route. When a conflict with a pedestrian presents itself I move back to the road if possible. There are also legal things I do that are often perceived as illegal such as riding with my high beams on during the day or skipping ferry lines. If I get flashed by oncoming traffic they may be mad at me but at least I know they saw me.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    US road traffic is not usually like this though https://www.romadailynews.it/photogallery_new/images/2015/05/traffico-roma-252245.660x368.jpg https://www.romadailynews.it/photogallery_new/images/2015/05... While it is pretty common in cities like Rome or Paris or Barcelona
    - mulmen 6y ago
      Yeah that would never happen in the US. I mean it might but there would be bodies everywhere.