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It's strange that Nova would target web tech as their top priority, and not Swift. If you're Mac-exclusive, why not advertise top-class support for Apple ecosys

It's strange that Nova would target web tech as their top priority, and not Swift. If you're Mac-exclusive, why not advertise top-class support for Apple ecosystem app development? Since Nova is prioritizing web workflows, VSC is the elephant in the room and a very deadly competitor. It's free and open source, it's available on Windows, MacOS, Linux, and it can also be ported to the web. And it's Insanely popular and very high quality. Meanwhile, all notable features Nova lists are default to VSC. One VSC feature that's been quite the remote lifesaver is shared sessions with voice chat.

asadlionpk 6y ago
Going for Swift means competing with XCode, which wouldn't make sense as Swift is generally used along with the entire iOS/macOS Dev tools (Simulators, UI Builders, Device Manager etc). Not a wise thing to do.
- paxys 6y ago
  It's the same for VSCode and JS/TS support though. Fighting against a fully featured, free, open-source and well-established product just on the basis of speed is going to be an uphill battle.
  - mkozlows 6y ago
    There is a big "ugh, Electron apps" contingent of Mac users. Or at least, there's a loud one, and I guess they figured it's also a big-enough one...
    - paxys 6y ago
      The vast majority of developers aren't hanging out on HN though. I'll wait till there are real benchmarks but I'd be very surprised if Nova is actually noticeably more performant than VS Code.
      - Nextgrid 6y ago
        Just the fact that Nova is ~36MB and VSCode is ~3x that at ~95MB should at least point you in the right direction. Also note that Nova already includes features that are only available via separate plugins on VSCode.
        RussianCow 6y ago
        But 95MB is small enough that it doesn't matter—1/3 the size of basically nothing is still basically nothing. Even in terms of memory or CPU usage, VS Code is relatively efficient compared to some other products on the market such as the JetBrains IDEs. Say what you will about Electron apps in general, but Microsoft has done a great job in making VS Code not feel like a typical Electron app.
        jmnicolas 6y ago
        If you have 4G of ram and 120G of disk and a slow internet connection all of this matter. Fwiw before getting internet fiber, a 95MB file resulted in about 20 min download (my reference was 300MB an hour).
        yeahoo 6y ago
        It's more about "enough proportion of ..", and my 5 cents are that using mac hardware _always_ with a very tiny internet connection is kind of rare. So not enough to base an argument on, in my opinion. Kinda having expensive mac hardware most probably implies access to some time of a good internet connection to download/update tools needed.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        > VS Code is relatively efficient compared to some other products on the market such as the JetBrains IDEs. That's not really a fair comparison I think. JetBrains IDEs do a lot more than VS Code. You'd have to load it up with plugins to make something resembling a fair comparison, and in that case I'd be very interested in how efficient VS Code still is.
    - OOPMan 6y ago
      We're not just Mac users. Electron apps are bloated ick but I guess at least Electron is equally repulsive on all OSes.
    - SirHound 6y ago
      VSC is more of a memory hog but in use it isn’t noticeably slower than Nova.
    - ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
      Where? Here in HN, a little bit, but out IRL? Out in real life no one knows or cares about this
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    Especially because TS and VSC already move at blazing speeds.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    React Native for Windows and macOS is developed by Microsoft, and they continuously show how Electron bloat means it uses 300x more resources than Win32, UWP, React Native applications. My hope is that they create enough momentum to force the VSCode team to rewrite in React Native.
- qppo 6y ago
  XCode was a motivating factor in my purchase of JetBrains products, specifically CLion.
  - xnz8 6y ago
    New thing this year, but VSCode + with Apple's SourceKit LSP extension [1] has been working surprisingly well for me. Glad to have more alternatives to Xcode. Have been using SPM's "swift build" + some copy commands to create a fully functional signable bundle, no need even for an .xcodeproj. [1] https://nshipster.com/vscode/ https://nshipster.com/vscode/
    - ziftface 6y ago
      I'm curious about this. Could you do iOS app development this way? Or at least native Mac development using cocoa like you could in xcode?
      - xnz8 6y ago
        Yes! The build just produces a single executable. For example, in a Mac app this would be the file inside Contents/MacOS. You then need to create a folder with an .app extension, set up a simple folder structure, and add some necessities such as the Info.plist file and your resources like the app icon/images. And codesign or notarize depending on your deployment requirements. Code completion works great for dev and I've found VSCode to be snappier than Xcode even if the underlying engine (SourceKit) is supposed to be the same. The only thing "missing" is not having Interface Builder, but probably most serious projects use code-generated UIs anyway. You could, of course, still make an .xib file in Xcode and use it in your VSCode project. (I don't have a MainMenu.xib myself.) See: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/CoreFoundation/Conceptual/CFBundles/BundleTypes/BundleTypes.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000123i-CH101-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Co...
        ziftface 6y ago
        Thank you for sharing!
- sdflhasjd 6y ago
  I would definitely welcome some competition for XCode.
  - shepherdjerred 6y ago
    Check out AppCode
hexis 6y ago
Many Mac users value a native application.
hrktb 6y ago
I wonder if they have a plan to move to iPad their codebase after it’s battle tested. There’s a lack of a serious editor over there, and in particular VS Code can’t compete because of it’s business model.
- paxys 6y ago
  > and in particular VS Code can’t compete because of it’s business model. What do you mean by that? If there was real demand for it, creating an iPad distribution for VS Code probably wouldn't be that difficult. It already runs great fully in a web browser.
  - gorbypark 6y ago
    VS Code is built with Electron, so making an iPad VSCode would require porting Electron to Safari (Apple doesn’t allow alternative browser engines on iOS) . That should be doable seeing as the VSCode ports to the web seem to work okayish on Safari, but it world be a pretty big undertaking.
    - connor4312 6y ago
      Codespaces works on iPad already https://github.com/features/codespaces https://github.com/features/codespaces It was a big undertaking :)
      - rhodysurf 6y ago
        Do people have access to this yet? Been waiting forever
    - panopticon 6y ago
      I use code-server[0] to access VSCode on my iPad in Safari, and it works pretty well. There are some rough edges, but (aside from the better shortcut integration and UI polish) I don't think a native app is going to provide a lot benefit because I can't execute arbitrary code on the iPad anyway. You're going to end up with a mostly remote experience either way. [0]: https://github.com/cdr/code-server https://github.com/cdr/code-server
hombre_fatal 6y ago
Targeting web development first seems like the obvious business decision. If building an Xcode competitor is a good idea, then it's still a good idea after you have made an editor that's worth using for broader tasks and vetted by the market. People who care already edit Swift in their favorite editor and use Xcode for the rest of the dev iOS process. You'd be better off trying to capture the hearts of people so that you're their favorite editor than specializing to implement the "rest of the iOS dev process" on day 0. As an iOS developer, I think most people start off disliking Xcode but then settle into a reluctant but productive relationship with it. The only things I need to use it for (device simulation, interface builder) are hard to build and yet they're not the things that annoy me about Xcode. Or rather, I wouldn't rather be wrestling with them on someone else's ultimately buggy attempt at reimplementing them.
monadic2 6y ago
If they were to target a native "full powered" editor it would make sense to first capitalize on core competency. This editor definitely isn't for me but it makes sense for Panic.
karmelapple 6y ago
Nova is the successor to Coda, which was always a web development tool. So seems totally logical to me.
sneak 6y ago
> It's free and open source, it's available on Windows, MacOS, Linux, and it can also be ported to the web Common misconception. VSC's most novel/valuable features are not open source. VSC is only "open core"; all of the real value-adds are proprietary and cannot legally be forked/reused. > One VSC feature that's been quite the remote lifesaver is shared sessions with voice chat. Like that one.
- thiht 6y ago
  Like what? The remote editing extensions come to mind (although there are open source alternatives), but what else?
ksec 6y ago
Well first Nova is next generation of Coda, which focused on Web Development. Second I bet there are more Web Developers out there than there are for Mac or iOS.

asadlionpk 6y ago

Going for Swift means competing with XCode, which wouldn't make sense as Swift is generally used along with the entire iOS/macOS Dev tools (Simulators, UI Builders, Device Manager etc). Not a wise thing to do.

paxys 6y ago
It's the same for VSCode and JS/TS support though. Fighting against a fully featured, free, open-source and well-established product just on the basis of speed is going to be an uphill battle.
- mkozlows 6y ago
  There is a big "ugh, Electron apps" contingent of Mac users. Or at least, there's a loud one, and I guess they figured it's also a big-enough one...
  - paxys 6y ago
    The vast majority of developers aren't hanging out on HN though. I'll wait till there are real benchmarks but I'd be very surprised if Nova is actually noticeably more performant than VS Code.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      Just the fact that Nova is ~36MB and VSCode is ~3x that at ~95MB should at least point you in the right direction. Also note that Nova already includes features that are only available via separate plugins on VSCode.
      - RussianCow 6y ago
        But 95MB is small enough that it doesn't matter—1/3 the size of basically nothing is still basically nothing. Even in terms of memory or CPU usage, VS Code is relatively efficient compared to some other products on the market such as the JetBrains IDEs. Say what you will about Electron apps in general, but Microsoft has done a great job in making VS Code not feel like a typical Electron app.
        jmnicolas 6y ago
        If you have 4G of ram and 120G of disk and a slow internet connection all of this matter. Fwiw before getting internet fiber, a 95MB file resulted in about 20 min download (my reference was 300MB an hour).
        yeahoo 6y ago
        It's more about "enough proportion of ..", and my 5 cents are that using mac hardware _always_ with a very tiny internet connection is kind of rare. So not enough to base an argument on, in my opinion. Kinda having expensive mac hardware most probably implies access to some time of a good internet connection to download/update tools needed.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        > VS Code is relatively efficient compared to some other products on the market such as the JetBrains IDEs. That's not really a fair comparison I think. JetBrains IDEs do a lot more than VS Code. You'd have to load it up with plugins to make something resembling a fair comparison, and in that case I'd be very interested in how efficient VS Code still is.
  - OOPMan 6y ago
    We're not just Mac users. Electron apps are bloated ick but I guess at least Electron is equally repulsive on all OSes.
  - SirHound 6y ago
    VSC is more of a memory hog but in use it isn’t noticeably slower than Nova.
  - ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
    Where? Here in HN, a little bit, but out IRL? Out in real life no one knows or cares about this
- threatofrain 6y ago
  Especially because TS and VSC already move at blazing speeds.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  React Native for Windows and macOS is developed by Microsoft, and they continuously show how Electron bloat means it uses 300x more resources than Win32, UWP, React Native applications. My hope is that they create enough momentum to force the VSCode team to rewrite in React Native.
qppo 6y ago
XCode was a motivating factor in my purchase of JetBrains products, specifically CLion.
- xnz8 6y ago
  New thing this year, but VSCode + with Apple's SourceKit LSP extension [1] has been working surprisingly well for me. Glad to have more alternatives to Xcode. Have been using SPM's "swift build" + some copy commands to create a fully functional signable bundle, no need even for an .xcodeproj. [1] https://nshipster.com/vscode/ https://nshipster.com/vscode/
  - ziftface 6y ago
    I'm curious about this. Could you do iOS app development this way? Or at least native Mac development using cocoa like you could in xcode?
    - xnz8 6y ago
      Yes! The build just produces a single executable. For example, in a Mac app this would be the file inside Contents/MacOS. You then need to create a folder with an .app extension, set up a simple folder structure, and add some necessities such as the Info.plist file and your resources like the app icon/images. And codesign or notarize depending on your deployment requirements. Code completion works great for dev and I've found VSCode to be snappier than Xcode even if the underlying engine (SourceKit) is supposed to be the same. The only thing "missing" is not having Interface Builder, but probably most serious projects use code-generated UIs anyway. You could, of course, still make an .xib file in Xcode and use it in your VSCode project. (I don't have a MainMenu.xib myself.) See: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/CoreFoundation/Conceptual/CFBundles/BundleTypes/BundleTypes.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000123i-CH101-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Co...
      - ziftface 6y ago
        Thank you for sharing!
sdflhasjd 6y ago
I would definitely welcome some competition for XCode.
- shepherdjerred 6y ago
  Check out AppCode

hexis 6y ago

Many Mac users value a native application.

hrktb 6y ago

I wonder if they have a plan to move to iPad their codebase after it’s battle tested. There’s a lack of a serious editor over there, and in particular VS Code can’t compete because of it’s business model.

paxys 6y ago
> and in particular VS Code can’t compete because of it’s business model. What do you mean by that? If there was real demand for it, creating an iPad distribution for VS Code probably wouldn't be that difficult. It already runs great fully in a web browser.
- gorbypark 6y ago
  VS Code is built with Electron, so making an iPad VSCode would require porting Electron to Safari (Apple doesn’t allow alternative browser engines on iOS) . That should be doable seeing as the VSCode ports to the web seem to work okayish on Safari, but it world be a pretty big undertaking.
  - connor4312 6y ago
    Codespaces works on iPad already https://github.com/features/codespaces https://github.com/features/codespaces It was a big undertaking :)
    - rhodysurf 6y ago
      Do people have access to this yet? Been waiting forever
  - panopticon 6y ago
    I use code-server[0] to access VSCode on my iPad in Safari, and it works pretty well. There are some rough edges, but (aside from the better shortcut integration and UI polish) I don't think a native app is going to provide a lot benefit because I can't execute arbitrary code on the iPad anyway. You're going to end up with a mostly remote experience either way. [0]: https://github.com/cdr/code-server https://github.com/cdr/code-server

hombre_fatal 6y ago

Targeting web development first seems like the obvious business decision. If building an Xcode competitor is a good idea, then it's still a good idea after you have made an editor that's worth using for broader tasks and vetted by the market. People who care already edit Swift in their favorite editor and use Xcode for the rest of the dev iOS process. You'd be better off trying to capture the hearts of people so that you're their favorite editor than specializing to implement the "rest of the iOS dev process" on day 0. As an iOS developer, I think most people start off disliking Xcode but then settle into a reluctant but productive relationship with it. The only things I need to use it for (device simulation, interface builder) are hard to build and yet they're not the things that annoy me about Xcode. Or rather, I wouldn't rather be wrestling with them on someone else's ultimately buggy attempt at reimplementing them.

monadic2 6y ago

If they were to target a native "full powered" editor it would make sense to first capitalize on core competency. This editor definitely isn't for me but it makes sense for Panic.

karmelapple 6y ago

Nova is the successor to Coda, which was always a web development tool. So seems totally logical to me.

sneak 6y ago

> It's free and open source, it's available on Windows, MacOS, Linux, and it can also be ported to the web Common misconception. VSC's most novel/valuable features are not open source. VSC is only "open core"; all of the real value-adds are proprietary and cannot legally be forked/reused. > One VSC feature that's been quite the remote lifesaver is shared sessions with voice chat. Like that one.

thiht 6y ago
Like what? The remote editing extensions come to mind (although there are open source alternatives), but what else?

ksec 6y ago

Well first Nova is next generation of Coda, which focused on Web Development. Second I bet there are more Web Developers out there than there are for Mac or iOS.