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>The core question is this: should e2ee systems have any user growth/discovery tools or not? On some level the real question is "does Signal need to grow at all

>The core question is this: should e2ee systems have any user growth/discovery tools or not? On some level the real question is "does Signal need to grow at all?". I'm still VERY pissed off that Signal scanned my contacts without even asking me (I don't actually remember giving the app permission to do that). That was a big red flag for me.

josh2600 6y ago
I don't think it's possible for a non-apple/google app to access your address book on iOS or Android without you explicitly giving permission. Please correct me if I am wrong.
- billiam 6y ago
  If we're seriously arguing in HN over whether something as fundamental as this is going on , imagine the confusion among potential users of Signal.
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    The fact users can become confused of something doesn't affect whether it's a fact or not. An insistence upon truths that contradict the facts works just fine except for the practical implications which are stubbornly unchanged. During WW2 there was tremendous innovation in the field of electronics and radio. Some way through the war, both sides began fitting relatively small radio transmitters to aircraft, which enables an equipped aircraft to actively transmit. So one obvious idea is to transmit "Hey I'm friendly" and then you know not to send up interceptors. So there's a nice switch on your bomber aeroplane that activates this fancy new "I'm friendly" transmitter, you are trained to switch it on as you return to base, and the chap fitting it seems damn sure it's important to switch it off when leaving. Which is odd right? I mean, it prevents getting shot down, stands to reason you'd turn it on all the time. And so, despite the urging of those who understood how it works, leaving it switched on was indeed common practice, and commanders would defend their crews for doing this, arguing that the perceived safety of the "Don't shoot me down" transmitter allowed them to press home attacks in conditions where it might otherwise be prudent to withdraw. Which is funny because of course the reason to switch off the transmitter is that it's a free homing beacon for enemy fighters and anti-aircraft weapons, so in choosing to do this they were actually significantly increasing their danger of death.
- blendergeek 6y ago
  On Android at least, the apps have to ask for permission to see your contacts.
- bosswipe 6y ago
  Before Android Marshmallow the contact permission wasn't explicitly requested. Marshmallow became widely available in 2016.
  - bigiain 6y ago
    Oh that's interesting. I don't suppose anybody knows if Android version of Signal back in the 2014-2016 period asked for contact permission (in a non Android mandated way)? Ie if post 2016 Android Signal app running on pre-marshmellow Android versions does?
    - leptons 6y ago
      Even if it does ask for permission to my contacts, I don't like the use case of it importing all of my contacts. It's all-or-nothing, and if I choose no then the app may not install. Again, I don't really remember giving the app permission to my contacts, so maybe it's my bad, but I would have liked to have been able to choose which contacts to import and not just everyone. I remember this happened after an update, and to continue chatting with my friends, I'm not sure I had much of a choice but to give it access to my contacts. I don't really trust Signal all that much, but my friends seem to. It's founded by "Moxy Marlinspike" which is a guy with a made-up name, who Twitter hired to fix their security issues - and it looks like they wasted their money on that, so I don't have the most confidence in "Moxy" to really keep my chats private.
dylan604 6y ago
When I first installed it however many yearss ago that was, I nearly stopped because the first thing it did was ask for access to my contacts. I can't see that request for contacts access changing, so you have to be not remembering it. Then again, I'm on iPhone, so I can't speak to what Android does/doesn't do.
bigiain 6y ago
Signal has always asked for contact reading permission (I'm 99% certain), but it still does not do a good enough job of telling you "Once you grant this permission, we will notify every other Signal user in your contacts list that you are also now a Signal user". I still get pissed when it does that to friends of mine (and less pissed, but still unhappy when it does it to co workers, ex colleagues, work clients, government employees, taxi drivers, pizza delivers, and all the other random numbers my phone has saved in it's contact list over the last decade or so...)

josh2600 6y ago

I don't think it's possible for a non-apple/google app to access your address book on iOS or Android without you explicitly giving permission. Please correct me if I am wrong.

billiam 6y ago
If we're seriously arguing in HN over whether something as fundamental as this is going on , imagine the confusion among potential users of Signal.
- tialaramex 6y ago
  The fact users can become confused of something doesn't affect whether it's a fact or not. An insistence upon truths that contradict the facts works just fine except for the practical implications which are stubbornly unchanged. During WW2 there was tremendous innovation in the field of electronics and radio. Some way through the war, both sides began fitting relatively small radio transmitters to aircraft, which enables an equipped aircraft to actively transmit. So one obvious idea is to transmit "Hey I'm friendly" and then you know not to send up interceptors. So there's a nice switch on your bomber aeroplane that activates this fancy new "I'm friendly" transmitter, you are trained to switch it on as you return to base, and the chap fitting it seems damn sure it's important to switch it off when leaving. Which is odd right? I mean, it prevents getting shot down, stands to reason you'd turn it on all the time. And so, despite the urging of those who understood how it works, leaving it switched on was indeed common practice, and commanders would defend their crews for doing this, arguing that the perceived safety of the "Don't shoot me down" transmitter allowed them to press home attacks in conditions where it might otherwise be prudent to withdraw. Which is funny because of course the reason to switch off the transmitter is that it's a free homing beacon for enemy fighters and anti-aircraft weapons, so in choosing to do this they were actually significantly increasing their danger of death.
blendergeek 6y ago
On Android at least, the apps have to ask for permission to see your contacts.
bosswipe 6y ago
Before Android Marshmallow the contact permission wasn't explicitly requested. Marshmallow became widely available in 2016.
- bigiain 6y ago
  Oh that's interesting. I don't suppose anybody knows if Android version of Signal back in the 2014-2016 period asked for contact permission (in a non Android mandated way)? Ie if post 2016 Android Signal app running on pre-marshmellow Android versions does?
  - leptons 6y ago
    Even if it does ask for permission to my contacts, I don't like the use case of it importing all of my contacts. It's all-or-nothing, and if I choose no then the app may not install. Again, I don't really remember giving the app permission to my contacts, so maybe it's my bad, but I would have liked to have been able to choose which contacts to import and not just everyone. I remember this happened after an update, and to continue chatting with my friends, I'm not sure I had much of a choice but to give it access to my contacts. I don't really trust Signal all that much, but my friends seem to. It's founded by "Moxy Marlinspike" which is a guy with a made-up name, who Twitter hired to fix their security issues - and it looks like they wasted their money on that, so I don't have the most confidence in "Moxy" to really keep my chats private.

dylan604 6y ago

When I first installed it however many yearss ago that was, I nearly stopped because the first thing it did was ask for access to my contacts. I can't see that request for contacts access changing, so you have to be not remembering it. Then again, I'm on iPhone, so I can't speak to what Android does/doesn't do.

bigiain 6y ago

Signal has always asked for contact reading permission (I'm 99% certain), but it still does not do a good enough job of telling you "Once you grant this permission, we will notify every other Signal user in your contacts list that you are also now a Signal user". I still get pissed when it does that to friends of mine (and less pissed, but still unhappy when it does it to co workers, ex colleagues, work clients, government employees, taxi drivers, pizza delivers, and all the other random numbers my phone has saved in it's contact list over the last decade or so...)