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>For all the talk about foreign meddling, we never hear anything about israel. You here endless propaganda about russia, china, etc, but never about israel. I'm

by slg 6y ago

>For all the talk about foreign meddling, we never hear anything about israel. You here endless propaganda about russia, china, etc, but never about israel. I'm sure putin and xi wish they had the influence in the US that israel has. One reason you might be downvoted is because of this false equivalency. Yes, Israel is a big player in US politics. However they do it the old fashioned way of political pressure and negotiation. This has always been allowed. I'm not making a value judgement on that, just recognizing it is traditional foreign policy behavior. The accusations against Russia and to a lesser extent China are very different. They are being accused of a new and more nefarious meddling that has included accusations of hacking, compromising politicians, and massive grass roots style propaganda efforts (maybe Israel is guilty of these too, but I haven't seen any credible accusations of such behavior). I can certainly see how someone might think all the actions from all these countries are equivalent "meddling", but from a legal and tradition standpoint it is like comparing lobbying with straight bribery. One is much more acceptable than the other.

mikem170 6y ago
>However they do it the old fashioned way of political pressure and negotiation. Jonathan Pollard would be the biggest contrary example. Here's an article talking about all kinds of other spying that Israel done in the U.S., enough that: "The intelligence community would always be urging the highest level of threats, while the State Department would be saying, 'This is not going to go over very well, we can't give this kind of rating, because there will be certain consequences in terms of travel warnings and restrictions.'" https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278 https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly...
- slg 6y ago
  Once again this is traditional old foreign policy activity. We are probably doing the exact same spying on them. I'm not saying it is right, but it is accepted as a reality. It is different when this information is gathered for informational purposes which appears to be the case for Israel rather than when it is dumped on Wikileaks to achieve a specific political end like with the accusations of Russian meddling.
- shenberg 6y ago
  Jonathan Pollard was not suborned by the Mossad, he literally decided on his own that he wants to spy for Israel and offered intelligence to a random army officer he met. Everyone spies on everyone, I don't think there's a single foreign office employee in Germany that was surprised say, that the US tapped Angela Merkel's phone, among other world leaders. The US spies on all its allies as well as enemies, it's basically table-stakes in international relations.
disown 6y ago
> One reason you might be downvoted is because of this false equivalency. We all know the reasons for the downvotes. And funnily enough I predicted "false equivalency", "israel is our ally" or "whataboutism" response. You guys never disappointed. Like robots writing off a script. > and massive grass roots style propaganda efforts (maybe Israel is guilty of these too, but I haven't seen any credible accusations of such behavior) No? Ever look in the mirror? You are right, the zionist movement doesn't exist. But the real worry isn't the grassroots, it's the political elites that israel has in their pocket. Not to mention all the pro-israel "american right" all over youtube and social media. > However they do it the old fashioned way of political pressure and negotiation. This has always been allowed. Right, if you can say one thing about israel is that they play by the rules. /s Everything you accused china, russia, etc of, israel does, but "better". Not only that, they go beyond what china, russia, etc does. Including terrorism, sinking american ships, killing american troops, etc. > One is much more acceptable than the other. No, none of them are acceptable - but especially israel. Funny, you rarely see defense of china or russia, but in traditional and social media, there is always people justifying and defending israel. Where are the china/russia/etc grassroots movement? Where is their influence? The easiest way to debunk everything you wrote is the fact that we are talking about israel. Israel is nothing to america and to americans. Historically, economically, demographically, etc. But why are so much foreign policy, media, money, etc devoted to israel. It's easy to understand why russia or china or even north korea feature prominently. But why israel? But then again you already know all this so I'll end this here. And it's not just the US, they are meddling in the UK as well ( but we all knew this anyway ). https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/07/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-caught-on-camera-plotting-to-take-down-uk-mps https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/07/israeli-dipl...
- slg 6y ago
  And out come the anti-semitic dog whistles of Zionism, the USS Liberty, and "political elites that israel has in their pocket". You can criticize Israel and its politics all you want, but you cross a line when you say something like "Israel is nothing to america and to americans". You are stating that any American Jews who want a Jewish homeland are not truly American.

by slg 6y ago

mikem170 6y ago

>However they do it the old fashioned way of political pressure and negotiation. Jonathan Pollard would be the biggest contrary example. Here's an article talking about all kinds of other spying that Israel done in the U.S., enough that: "The intelligence community would always be urging the highest level of threats, while the State Department would be saying, 'This is not going to go over very well, we can't give this kind of rating, because there will be certain consequences in terms of travel warnings and restrictions.'" https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278 https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly...

slg 6y ago
Once again this is traditional old foreign policy activity. We are probably doing the exact same spying on them. I'm not saying it is right, but it is accepted as a reality. It is different when this information is gathered for informational purposes which appears to be the case for Israel rather than when it is dumped on Wikileaks to achieve a specific political end like with the accusations of Russian meddling.
shenberg 6y ago
Jonathan Pollard was not suborned by the Mossad, he literally decided on his own that he wants to spy for Israel and offered intelligence to a random army officer he met. Everyone spies on everyone, I don't think there's a single foreign office employee in Germany that was surprised say, that the US tapped Angela Merkel's phone, among other world leaders. The US spies on all its allies as well as enemies, it's basically table-stakes in international relations.

disown 6y ago

> One reason you might be downvoted is because of this false equivalency. We all know the reasons for the downvotes. And funnily enough I predicted "false equivalency", "israel is our ally" or "whataboutism" response. You guys never disappointed. Like robots writing off a script. > and massive grass roots style propaganda efforts (maybe Israel is guilty of these too, but I haven't seen any credible accusations of such behavior) No? Ever look in the mirror? You are right, the zionist movement doesn't exist. But the real worry isn't the grassroots, it's the political elites that israel has in their pocket. Not to mention all the pro-israel "american right" all over youtube and social media. > However they do it the old fashioned way of political pressure and negotiation. This has always been allowed. Right, if you can say one thing about israel is that they play by the rules. /s Everything you accused china, russia, etc of, israel does, but "better". Not only that, they go beyond what china, russia, etc does. Including terrorism, sinking american ships, killing american troops, etc. > One is much more acceptable than the other. No, none of them are acceptable - but especially israel. Funny, you rarely see defense of china or russia, but in traditional and social media, there is always people justifying and defending israel. Where are the china/russia/etc grassroots movement? Where is their influence? The easiest way to debunk everything you wrote is the fact that we are talking about israel. Israel is nothing to america and to americans. Historically, economically, demographically, etc. But why are so much foreign policy, media, money, etc devoted to israel. It's easy to understand why russia or china or even north korea feature prominently. But why israel? But then again you already know all this so I'll end this here. And it's not just the US, they are meddling in the UK as well ( but we all knew this anyway ). https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/07/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-caught-on-camera-plotting-to-take-down-uk-mps https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/07/israeli-dipl...

slg 6y ago
And out come the anti-semitic dog whistles of Zionism, the USS Liberty, and "political elites that israel has in their pocket". You can criticize Israel and its politics all you want, but you cross a line when you say something like "Israel is nothing to america and to americans". You are stating that any American Jews who want a Jewish homeland are not truly American.