6 ms·

But that's exactly what Apple wants. They want you to invest your time in their ecosystem because that prevents you from spending time in other ecosystems. Ever

But that's exactly what Apple wants. They want you to invest your time in their ecosystem because that prevents you from spending time in other ecosystems. Every thing they do that makes it more work for you to make an iOS or MacOS app is time you won't be spending making things for other platforms including the web. plus, they get the added bonus that they can demand you pay 30% of various transitions that they couldn't demand if you just left it a website that happened to be PWA Their incentives are entirely aligned not to support the latest web standards and not allow any other browsers on iOS to add them

scarface74 6y ago
How many apps that are just an interface to a website and could be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue? Besides that, according to the latest App Store rules, apps that just surface cross platform services aren’t required to have in app purchases.
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  A large amount of apps could just be a website if Apple supported more API’s. It would also bring bigger budgets to webdev teams and improve the quality of their webapps.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Care to name some web apps that are successful on Android but are required to be apps on iOS?
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      You've got it wrong, because Android has much looser review policies so these apps don't have to be web pages on that platform. People (including Apple!) push web apps on iOS to not be subject to App Store review.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        It doesn’t matter. If PWAs were good enough on Android, and seeing that you would probably need to build a web app anyway. Why not just build a web app + iOS app and not build an Android app at all?
    - spiderfarmer 6y ago
      Why rephrase the question? Lots of apps could have been just a webapp. It doesn’t have to be popular or succesful to prove that point, because it’s the smaller apps / teams like my one man company that would profit the most. Let larger companies spend their money on squeezing out maximum performance via native code. And let me use the browser for the 10k users of my app.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        If the argument is that Apple is holding back PWAs, then there should be a lot of corresponding web only apps on Android that are forced to be native on iOS. The developers would have a web app anyway for the desktop so you should see a lot of apps that are PWA apps with iOS apps.
        spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Why should there be? There are thousands of webdevs who weren't 'forced' to be native on iOS, because they don't have knowledge and budget to be native. You're asking the wrong question.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Whether there should be or not. The question isn’t why doesn’t every website have a native app. The question is if PWAs are good enough for Android because of its great support and not good enough for iOS. You should see a lot of companies doing iOS + Web instead of iOS + Android + Web. But that’s not the case. Companies have spoken with their budgets. They decided that it was worth the money to have native Android apps. Could it possibly be that HN posters are wrong and PWAs aren’t good enough on Android either?
        spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Almost all smaller e-commerce websites don't have an app. They rely on their website + e-mail notifications. Would they enable web notifications if it was universally available? Yes. Would they enable it just for Android users? Some do. Does this say something about the quality of PWA's? You tell me. You seem to be adamant that the web sucks, yet literally millions of companies are succesful on the web without accompanying apps.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Breaking up your question into two pieces: > How many apps [could] be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications[?] I’d say a lot. > [How many of them] would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue? Adding this caveat doesn’t change my answer—but I really don’t like what it's implying. Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    > I’d say a lot Yet you didn’t name any. If that were the case, you should be able to name the equivalent web apps on Android that must be apps on iOS. > Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money. So where are those “valuable” web apps on Android? Also revenue is the most objective way to measure value.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      > Yet you didn’t name any. Reddit, Trello, Twitter. Probably Discord and Slack too. I haven't used Android in years but I certainly don't see why these wouldn't work as web apps if you had push notifications. All the functionality is there.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        And none of those companies thought the web app was good enough to eschew native apps on Android. Why is that?
        spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Because they have the budgets to do both. That's why you're asking the wrong question.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Companies don’t just spend money because they “have the budget”.
spiderfarmer 6y ago
I am 100% convinced that mobile Safari is worse for the future of the web than IE6 ever was. And it’s 100% intentional.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  Can you elaborate on what you foresee happening, and why?
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    On top of the now years old and still not implemented notification API, Apple recently declined to implement 16 other PWA API's, citing privacy concerns. They could make every API opt-in or propose improvements, but they won't. With IE6, people were at least allowed to install more capable browsers. With iOS there are no other browsers. Only user interfaces around Safari webviews.
alsetmusic 6y ago
This is an unnecessarily pessimistic view. Yes, Apple wants us to spend all of our time interacting with / committed to their users. No, that aren’t maliciously trying to steal our time from other platforms. The thought chain ends with their platform, never considering that we even have other platforms to support. A self-obsessed outlook is different from a deliberately sabotaging business plan, even when they present the same outward behaviors. Occam’s razor.

scarface74 6y ago

How many apps that are just an interface to a website and could be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue? Besides that, according to the latest App Store rules, apps that just surface cross platform services aren’t required to have in app purchases.

spiderfarmer 6y ago
A large amount of apps could just be a website if Apple supported more API’s. It would also bring bigger budgets to webdev teams and improve the quality of their webapps.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Care to name some web apps that are successful on Android but are required to be apps on iOS?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    You've got it wrong, because Android has much looser review policies so these apps don't have to be web pages on that platform. People (including Apple!) push web apps on iOS to not be subject to App Store review.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      It doesn’t matter. If PWAs were good enough on Android, and seeing that you would probably need to build a web app anyway. Why not just build a web app + iOS app and not build an Android app at all?
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    Why rephrase the question? Lots of apps could have been just a webapp. It doesn’t have to be popular or succesful to prove that point, because it’s the smaller apps / teams like my one man company that would profit the most. Let larger companies spend their money on squeezing out maximum performance via native code. And let me use the browser for the 10k users of my app.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      If the argument is that Apple is holding back PWAs, then there should be a lot of corresponding web only apps on Android that are forced to be native on iOS. The developers would have a web app anyway for the desktop so you should see a lot of apps that are PWA apps with iOS apps.
      - spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Why should there be? There are thousands of webdevs who weren't 'forced' to be native on iOS, because they don't have knowledge and budget to be native. You're asking the wrong question.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Whether there should be or not. The question isn’t why doesn’t every website have a native app. The question is if PWAs are good enough for Android because of its great support and not good enough for iOS. You should see a lot of companies doing iOS + Web instead of iOS + Android + Web. But that’s not the case. Companies have spoken with their budgets. They decided that it was worth the money to have native Android apps. Could it possibly be that HN posters are wrong and PWAs aren’t good enough on Android either?
        spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Almost all smaller e-commerce websites don't have an app. They rely on their website + e-mail notifications. Would they enable web notifications if it was universally available? Yes. Would they enable it just for Android users? Some do. Does this say something about the quality of PWA's? You tell me. You seem to be adamant that the web sucks, yet literally millions of companies are succesful on the web without accompanying apps.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Breaking up your question into two pieces: > How many apps [could] be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications[?] I’d say a lot. > [How many of them] would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue? Adding this caveat doesn’t change my answer—but I really don’t like what it's implying. Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money.
- scarface74 6y ago
  > I’d say a lot Yet you didn’t name any. If that were the case, you should be able to name the equivalent web apps on Android that must be apps on iOS. > Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money. So where are those “valuable” web apps on Android? Also revenue is the most objective way to measure value.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > Yet you didn’t name any. Reddit, Trello, Twitter. Probably Discord and Slack too. I haven't used Android in years but I certainly don't see why these wouldn't work as web apps if you had push notifications. All the functionality is there.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      And none of those companies thought the web app was good enough to eschew native apps on Android. Why is that?
      - spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Because they have the budgets to do both. That's why you're asking the wrong question.
        scarface74 6y ago
        Companies don’t just spend money because they “have the budget”.

spiderfarmer 6y ago

I am 100% convinced that mobile Safari is worse for the future of the web than IE6 ever was. And it’s 100% intentional.

oarsinsync 6y ago
Can you elaborate on what you foresee happening, and why?
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  On top of the now years old and still not implemented notification API, Apple recently declined to implement 16 other PWA API's, citing privacy concerns. They could make every API opt-in or propose improvements, but they won't. With IE6, people were at least allowed to install more capable browsers. With iOS there are no other browsers. Only user interfaces around Safari webviews.

alsetmusic 6y ago

This is an unnecessarily pessimistic view. Yes, Apple wants us to spend all of our time interacting with / committed to their users. No, that aren’t maliciously trying to steal our time from other platforms. The thought chain ends with their platform, never considering that we even have other platforms to support. A self-obsessed outlook is different from a deliberately sabotaging business plan, even when they present the same outward behaviors. Occam’s razor.